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I am UPS 3, does this mean I'm only likely to be considered for senior positions?

Discussion in 'Pay and conditions' started by littlerussell, Jul 10, 2011.

  1. littlerussell

    littlerussell New commenter

    I agree that many schools won't want to pay UPS3. There are some out there who would for the right teacher. We have looked (largely unsuccessfully) to recruit UPS staff in the past for two reasons - to rebalance a little after employing a lot of NQTs, and when we had a situation with a teacher on capability leaving mid-year and wanted an experienced teacher to pull the class back.
    Schools in OFSTED categories may also need 'proven' staff.
    Don't give up, perhaps target your application a little and focus on Christmas/Easter jobs?
  2. Thanks to everyone who's replied.
    I'm definitely going to look in to academies in more depth, I really don't know much about them.
    And littlerussell, it's a good point about some schools needing experienced staff. I was planning on looking at Christmas/Easter start dates anyway, so that fits well. I'd also consider any type of contract: part time/full time/ short term , so I'm not going to be picky about what I go for.
  3. langteacher

    langteacher Occasional commenter

    How many staff who have been recently recruited in your school are on UPS3 and are just teachers with no responsibility?
    How many are NQTs or only on MPS?
    Do the maths!
  4. DaisysLot

    DaisysLot Senior commenter

    Not many teachers leave our school so most are now UPS.....
  5. marymoocow

    marymoocow Star commenter

    I have to say that this year, after loads of nqt jobs last year, ,there have been loads of experienced teachers wanted. Especially after Christmas and Easter. I got an interviews for 2 and all candidates were UPS. One was a school with lots of NQTs replacing a retiring and therefore expensive teacher and one was a school with an older 35+ staff so I guess an older person fitted in better. It was also replacing someone on ups and was in a difficult catchment. If you are prepared to work in more challenging school then there are loads of jobs. I work in a deprived area and our head went through a phase of appointing NQTs, but they just couldnt hack it and now he always goes for experience.
  6. strawbs

    strawbs Occasional commenter

    as an experienced teacher who has worked my way up the pay scale and "earnt" the right to be paid for that experience I would not agree that the scale should be significantly shortened/compressed.
  7. Crowbob

    Crowbob Established commenter

    For M1-6, "working" is turning up and not be so abysmally awful that you don't get the automatic pay increment.
  8. Don't know if ths helps but ...
    I've been on UPS3 for 5 years now. Gave notice on a permanent job (0.6fte) as 2nd in Dept in a secondary school (with no job to go to!) as I didn't enjoy teaching at that school; got a job (0.4fte) before the September in a primary school teaching PPA (2 year contract) because "they knew I would have no problems"; and just got a permanent f/t job for this September as a teacher with no responsibility in my preferred subject at an Ofsted-Outstanding Grammar School because " I had the confidence and experience they were looking for".
    I think it depends on the school, and more importantly, the Head.
  9. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    You can't be paid lower than UPS3 for LA teaching and there's no point in claiming to be lower on the scale.
    I wish LAs would go back to centrally managing staff salaries, witht he Head and governors simply told how many teachers etc they can recruit. The best candidate can then be chosed, irrespective of where they are ont he payscale. That's how things operated prior to LMS (Local Management by Schools) 20 years ago or so.
    Academies, in my limited experience on supply, demand a lot more from their teachers (including weekend workshops where it's not looked upon well if you don't attend on the Friday evening and Saturday at intervals). Teachers' pay and conditions don't have to be adhered to.
    Quite a lot of academies have risen from the ashes of notorious LA schools. If they are just a few years into Academy status they will have a lot of challenging pupils. The emphasis is on
    rooting out persistent troublemakers in the lower year groups so that in a few years they can claim to be working miracles with pupils when results improve.
    The excluded pupils will have to be taken on at LA schools and those schools will see increasing numbers of excluded pupils and thus results that dip at the same rate as they improve elsewhere!
    LA schools are fined £3k per excluded pupil. Academies are not fined at all as they are out of LA control.
  10. langteacher

    langteacher Occasional commenter

    ....but of the recently recruited ones, how many are NQT?
  11. Me: UPS 3; thirty-five years experience teaching chemistry and maths in London schools. Between May 2010 and April 2011 I made over 200 applications; not one interview!
  12. kevgeall

    kevgeall New commenter

    This is a fairly ridiculous over-simplification. It makes the wholly incorrect assumption that every NQT stays in teaching until they hit UPS. I believe only around 50% make it to their third year, though presumably the attrition rate is a lot less after that.
    It also assumes that staff on UPS are as likely to seek a new job as an NQT, this is clearly not the case for a whole host of reason.
    In my experience we go for the best staff and cost isn't much of a consideration at all; students are happier with more energetic and capable staff (whatever their experience) and results are better. We've recruited several teachers on UPS over the past few years though of course NQTs are more common, we have excellent links with several ITT providers and so can often snap up the bright young (or mature) things.
    From a purely cost perspective, how much time do Heads of Year/AHTs etc spend supporting weaker teachers? Each one of those hours costs the school £40 +. Assuming 2 hours per week (parental phone calls, meetings, detentions, 2 hours is easily done) is spent on a weaker teacher, that is well over £3k in a year in teachers' time alone. Is it really an economy? You could have had a teacher with two more years of experience for that. Where teachers really struggle there is much, much more than 2 hours per week spent supporting them.
    I don't think I've ever worked in a school that would deliberately reject the best candidate because they cost more. Of course, value for money is an issue; so a UPS teacher needs to show their experience at interview. If they are no better than the NQT then, quite rightly, the school will seek the better value for money that the NQT represents.
    Just my £0.02

  13. langteacher

    langteacher Occasional commenter

    it is a simplification but by no means ridiculous!
    yes there will be more NQTs looking than there are UPS but I know of several very experienced teachers who do well at interview who have lost out in this kind of situation.
    fully accept what you say about it making more sense when taking support etc into consideration but in the cash strapped area where i work, it appears they simply look at the bottom line.
    In over 16 years of teaching, I could count on one hand the amount of people who have been appointed on UPS in my school and it is certainly not that they did not apply.
    It may well happen in your school but how many can honestly say that it it is not a factor?
  14. jubilee

    jubilee Star commenter

    I don't think it's just money. NQTs, when they are early twenties, are more likely to be kow-tow to the prevailing agendas in a schoo, whereas more mature candidates may have strong ideas of their own (less flexible?).
    I certainly found some of the practices in MFL laughable when I was doing Induction and would not implement them in my classes as they were gimmicky with no learning potential. It did not endear me to the young 2nd in Department or the HOD!
    Some senior department teachers, who are still in their twenties or thirties, would rather have younger teachers under them too.
  15. strawbs

    strawbs Occasional commenter

    last 2 in my DEPT have been appointed on UPS3 !!
  16. langteacher

    langteacher Occasional commenter

    glad it's happening somewhere!

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