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How to track marking

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by Bonnie23, Aug 31, 2018.

  1. pennyh.

    pennyh. Occasional commenter

    Take photographs of practical work and print out using school ink or put in file and tell SMT they can see progress there using modern IT and not paper- quite useful when year 11 are in denial about going at a snails pace.
  2. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Proper studies ought to be done on marking.

    As in - what good does it do in relation to time spent on it.

    So you'd have to have a control group where no marking was done. I'm talking official marking here. NOT verbal feedback during the lesson.

    The people who deliver my online shopping have 27 minutes to pack the van with the day's shopping. So that's deemed consonant with giving a good service whilst making a profit for the business. So that calculation needs to be done with marking.

    No use saying we're professionals. We're not. Professionals like lawyers and doctors don't have someone dictating to them to the extent that teachers do. So let's do this properly. What's the point of marking? How long should it take given the benefits it does (or does not confer)?

    And I'm adamant that marking for the sake of it is pretty pointless.
    agathamorse and Bonnie23 like this.
  3. meggyd

    meggyd Lead commenter

    Exactly. And what is the point of handing in your books and getting back a comment like "Good use of stickers and stamps." If they did it properly the scrutineers would be writing equally lengthy comments on the marking to justify their assessments.
  4. the hippo

    the hippo Lead commenter Community helper

    Well, grumpydogwoman, perhaps teachers do a lot of things "for the sake of it", not because we think that it really makes a difference to the quality of our students' learning. Since 1998, I have been teaching overseas and of course many international schools are fee-paying, so you have to keep the customers happy. What parents may consider "good service" and what teachers consider it to be could be quite different things.
    Bonnie23 likes this.
  5. meggyd

    meggyd Lead commenter

    I would add that in mfl the marking assessor does not even understand the language being assessed. At one point I toyed with idea of getting stickers and stamps in a different but similar language and seeing if anyone noticed. At the end of a frenzied day a few minutes of energetic stamping was a good way of winding down.
  6. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I don't think the OP will get very far complaining in their school unless other staff are on board with complaints as well.

    19 groups with little book work, is only 2 groups a night with a fortnight marking policy.
    2 sets of DT books a night is hardly an onerous amount of marking.
    It should be perfectly possible, with a decent amount of practical work, to lower this to alternate days of 1 set, 2 sets.

    There should be absolutely no book work at all for this. I would seriously be questioning the quality of teaching if this subject was anything more than the very occasional written assessment.
    This lowers the groups which might need marking to 15, which makes it even easier.

    The OP needs to speak to their colleagues in Geog, Hist, RE and the like before complaining.
  7. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Pleased to say that I don't think I ever did anything just for the sake of it in 30+ years of teaching. Some things I had doubts about and then I'd always question it.

    Which is exactly what I asked my students to do. If you don't feel as if you're getting anything out of this or you don't see why I'm doing what I'm doing then you have to tell me. And I have to be able to explain to your satisfaction why we work this way. I have to know in my own mind why I'm doing what I'm doing and what I expect you to get out of it. Everything has to be justifiable. I won't do anything just for the sake of it or to appease anyone else. My life and the lives of the kids is worth more than that.
    agathamorse and Bonnie23 like this.
  8. Bonnie23

    Bonnie23 Occasional commenter

    I'm sorry but I find this quite offensive. Our subject is constantly being looked down on by other subjects despite the fact that we are both academic and practical. We don't just jump in and out of practical work, we don't just stop working to lower our marking. And the 'OP' is more than aware of what happens in other subjects and I am more than aware that the same colleagues in Geog, Hist, RE etc do not have as many groups.

    Posts like yours often make me wish I hadn't bothered posting on here.

    I came on here looking for advice, not a competition of which teacher has it harder.
    agathamorse likes this.
  9. Bonnie23

    Bonnie23 Occasional commenter

    We're quite lucky that students use iPads in school. I was thinking about getting them to photograph their work each lesson to show the progress and then write any verbal feedback down as homework or at the end of the lesson? (Not sure they would remember it for homework).
    grumpydogwoman likes this.
  10. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    Get them to take 3 photos.
    Two photos exemplify something they think they did well.
    1 shows a problem area or something they struggled with but ultimately conquered.

    And yeah. Get them to record the interaction they had with you during the lesson.
    agathamorse and Bonnie23 like this.
  11. Robfreeman

    Robfreeman Occasional commenter

    Whats the point for the students?
  12. Lalad

    Lalad Star commenter

    agathamorse and Bonnie23 like this.
  13. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I apologise, certainly didn't mean to be offensive, merely to point out that if SLT have decided this is the marking policy, you will need a very good argument not to follow it, especially if others with similar or greater marking load are not disputing the policy.

    I'm not looking down on your subject, merely pointing out that there is less writing to mark. I have a lot less marking than the year 5 English teacher...doesn't mean I work less hard, just that the proportion of work time spent marking is far less. We could both complain about overall workload, but I'd look a right twit complaining about marking.

    I haven't suggested that you 'jump in and out of practical work' more that you plan now to ensure you don't have all your groups doing writing in the same week. Plan ahead and organise the necessary work to ensure your marking load is manageable. You've said yourself that pupils can photograph their own work and jot down any verbal feedback. Brilliant...and almost no marking.

    You asked for advice on how to manage and this is what I've given. You didn't ask for only advice you wanted to hear.
    Bonnie23 and Pomza like this.
  14. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    In Nov 16, Sean Hartford (Ofsted) wrote that there is no reliable research available which suggests that written feedback has any effect on pupil progress.

    More recent DfE workload case studies have actually indicated that progress increases when written marking ceases to be used as the method of feedback to students.
    agathamorse and grumpydogwoman like this.
  15. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    Whilst this may reduce teacher workload, it is still completely pointless in terms of furthering pupil progress.

    I wouldn't want any teacher or student wasting their time on anything that will not directly support learning...

    I've asked our teachers to stop photographing everything! Waste of life.

    The evidence of progress is in the outcomes at the end of a unit of learning.
  16. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    Come on though, tell the truth...DT don't really do any proper marking do they...? ;-)
  17. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    I don't mind the photographs. They could be made to be useful. If they make you reflect. It's good practice to give yourself a pat on the back when you've done something well whilst keeping your eye open for a chance to improve.

    (From the student's pov.)
    agathamorse and Bonnie23 like this.
  18. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    Evidence (work in books, marking, written plans, etc) isn't about furthering pupil progress, it is merely about proving you have done your job. At the OP's school, they are being asked to do this. Saying it is a pointless waste of everyone's time is only possible when you are in a position for someone to listen. A mere mortal in the classroom can say such things (possibly with more professional phrasing) to SLT, but are unlikely to be listened to.

    There is marking, but two sets of DT books a day isn't onerous. One marked at lunchtime and one after school. Done.
    Bonnie23 likes this.
  19. Pomza

    Pomza Star commenter

    I think the activites pupils undertake and record in books should totally be about furthering their progress - otherwise they are totally pointless.

    I realise the OP’s just following some dumb policy, but I really believe that the more people challenge the marking myth the better.

    More and more schools are knocking this type of thing on the head...

    Edit - still don’t believe DT do any marking. I’m gonna check it out tomorrow. Thought they Hammered nails into things and played with the massive drill thing that always reminds me of an old school dental x ray machine....
    Bonnie23 and koopatroopa like this.
  20. Grandsire

    Grandsire Senior commenter

    There’s very much a culture now where I work of ‘evidencing learning’, so the children’s books need to become something that anyone can pick up and see exactly what went on, lesson by lesson. It’s making the emphasis on book-based learning (and therefore marking and feedback) way too onerous. Objectives, targets, numbered statements according to whether it’s independent, guided or group work, and whether they were learning a new skill, revising a previously-taught skill or applying a skill (who cares?!), it’s all piled on top of the date-and-title, which is as much as I ask for. And there’s no proof any of it makes a difference to anyone, except when they do a book trawl and want to understand the teaching and learning that went on in each lesson, the different levels of differentiation, the individual learning targets, and how I’m moving my pupils on.

    This change to providing proof of my teaching is something I’m fighting hard to resist, because as far as I care, the exercise books are where my pupils merely practise their skills, which is only a very small part of their learning experience with me - it actually happens at all points in the day, from lining up in random order before assembly where a team point is given to anyone who’s a square number, to playing a dice game to build a sentence at break. All of this is great learning that doesn’t need to be written down let alone be given written feedback, yet that’s what is asked for, just so I can ‘evidence the learning’ that goes on in my classroom.

    It would be nice if they trusted me to teach. I am, after all, a teacher!

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