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How many hours are we paid to work?

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by Orchid2457, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. meggyd

    meggyd Senior commenter

    Ok . So management allocate so many lessons for year 11. This is directed and part of the 1265. Slt then tell teachers they must do extra lessons, say 30 hours worth . Thats a big chunk of extra work and only in one year group. And I could go on........
    agathamorse likes this.
  2. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    If I were taking a test case to court on what is "reasonable" I'd certainly want to use that clause to support the argument, but I suspect the court would find that the prohibition only referred to directed time. Because the clause says "No teacher may be required to work on any Saturday, Sunday or public holiday".
    agathamorse likes this.
  3. meggyd

    meggyd Senior commenter

    Interesting. So on Friday when you are asked to mark a test/ hand in a set of reports/ write a sow for Mon/ Tues .....
    agathamorse likes this.

    SEBREGIS Lead commenter

    I agree this one needs to be clarified.

    I raised it at a conference last year and was told that if you also look at the T&C documents, we are expected to be able to do our marking and prep 'substantially in non contact time.' The reasonable additional hours - are no more than 25% over your non contact time.

    In my case, I get 8 frees on a two week cycle, so really an hours marking and prep per day (outside of my non contact time) is me being generous. This is, of course, cloud cuckoo land.

    I totally agree that we should aim for a specific, agreed definition of what this means. But in practice, it would also require a complete change of culture in education. Managers would actually have to start asking 'How long will this job take? And what do I actually want my staff to be doing with their time?' (like - you know - managers in industry do) rather than just throwing work at us. Frequently because they themselves are too buys to effectively prioritise.

    Sigh. I remember once asking my head of faculty what the priority jobs were for this half term. And she replied - all of them. I mean - even a Whelk stall owner knows that the most important this is to obtain non lethal Whelks...
    Catgirl1964 and agathamorse like this.

    SEBREGIS Lead commenter

    You were not 'required' to do it. You could have pulled an all-nighter during the week...
  6. meggyd

    meggyd Senior commenter

    So work up to midnight on Fri, down tools and then hand what has been done on Mon morning.
    Catgirl1964 and agathamorse like this.

    SEBREGIS Lead commenter

    As long as you were only given it on Friday at 3.30. Otherwise - why didn't you do it between midnight and 7.30am on thursday night/ friday morning, you slacker? Seriously - don't you take the education of these children seriously? How can you let them down like that? Don't you care?
    agathamorse likes this.
  8. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    "we are expected" by who? I don't know whose opinion that was but I've never seen any such expectation in any contract of employment or statutory document (it certainly isn't in STPCD) or DFE guidance.

    And how would that expectation work for teachers who work in Primary (the majority) and rarely have non-contact time?
  9. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Just say no, it's an unreasonable request... ;)
    agathamorse and nomad like this.

    SEBREGIS Lead commenter

    I'm pretty sure it's in the 'Industrial Action Short of Strike Action' document, which is basically a clarification of what we could insist on if we were being really sticky, but I can't remember for sure. So no, not the same thing, and any teacher who tried to follow it without a ballot would be in trouble, but its there.
    agathamorse likes this.
  11. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    The problem here is that your SLT's definition of effectively/properly and what is actually efficacious may well be quite a way apart.
  12. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    Can you define properly in terms of teaching? I know I cannot.

    For instance does it mean not using a red pen, using a green pen for marking and a purple one for amendments? Does it mean triple marking? Does it mean making detailed lesson plans for each lesson with timings down to the minute? Does it mean students working individually, in groups or a combination, if so at what ratio?

    I ask as so many people have "failed" an observation/learning walk and put onto capability for not doing the job "properly" but at another school would need to do something else all together.
    agathamorse and grumpydogwoman like this.
  13. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    My understanding of doing things properly is highly unlikely to coincide with the views of anyone else!

    I do not believe triple-mounting to be the proper way to do things. Nor having someone tell me that I must mark every book in such-and-such a fashion every day incorporating WWW, EBI and so on.

    I'm sure I could find 65 colleagues in a 100 who'd tell me I ought to do both those things. I disagree. You could be 10 rungs above me on the ladder. I'd still disagree.
    agathamorse, nomad and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  14. jomaimai

    jomaimai Established commenter

    So, when I got my Uk permanent contract, I could not believe my eyes. I come from an European country where teachers in mainstream schools work, in primary, the following hours:
    23 hours contact time x week
    7.5 hours in school x week in PPAs, staff meetings, planing meetings, consultations, CPD...
    7.5 hours x week, wherever you want, to do what you need: marking, reports...

    Of course, at the end of every term you have 2 or 3 hectic weeks where you work a lot more.

    In secondary, they have 18 contact hours.
    agathamorse and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  15. nomad

    nomad Star commenter

    Not for me it doesn't!

    FWIW I have never espoused any of that faddish nonsense, not have I ever (as a HT) imposed it on others. I have no issue with marking in red pen since that colour stands out best against the pupil's pencil it blue/black ink. I used to use more than one colour (red, orange, green, or whatever) just so that I could see where each batch of marking started and finished - a bit like auditors do on accounts. And no, I didn't mark every day. If self- or peer marking is appropriate then use it and save yourself some time.

    As for detailed lesson plans? No. Never. Just a summary of work covered so I know the curriculum is being covered.nonsense

    As for pupils working individually or in groups - whatever the task and availability of resources demands, otherwise up to the teacher and his/her own teaching style.

    I am and have been considered a bit of a teaching dinosaur. If teaching in the same way as I did when I started in the 1970s was effective and doing a proper job, then why change? I teach - they learn - job done.

    At the end of the day, if a pupil leaves the lesson having enjoyed it and learned (or revised) something that was on the curriculum then the teacher is doing a proper and effective job and as an HT I am (or was, as I have now retired) happy. Precisely how that is achieved is up to the teacher. My job is to facilitate it, not to impose petty conditions.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  16. Lara mfl 05

    Lara mfl 05 Star commenter

    Oh if only there were more HTs like yourself @nomad.
    Marshall, Orchid2457 and agathamorse like this.
  17. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    According to https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours it is averaged over 17 weeks. I would guess that most teachers work no more than 14 weeks in any period of 17 weeks, so an average term time maximum would be about 48hours.

    This is what the unions might think the rules should be but not what is part of teachers' contracts..There have been debates before about what the implications should be if a teacher breaks their contract by refusing to do something they can be instructed to do, but I don't think it has been tested.
  18. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    But that's the trouble. The other workers who see us work 14 weeks for every 17 of theirs!

    All I know is that I never worked crazy hours to the detriment of my wellbeing or that of my family. From 1980 to 2013. But I'm pretty sure my approach wouldn't be tolerated by many HTs these days. I maintain that I did a good job and did right by the kids by I bet I wouldn't cut the mustard these days.
    agathamorse, Piranha and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  19. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

    Let's face it the contract is wooly and open to abuse, and seems to more an more.

    I think it would be nice if each school annually audited staffs' workload and realistically identified how much time they'd expect staff to spend in order to effectively do thert job. This would recognise that someone new would spend longer on certain tasks so may need to expect less from them in other areas. More experienced staff picking up the things so everyone has a similar load over the year.
  20. grumpydogwoman

    grumpydogwoman Star commenter

    You can't and shouldn't be working 10 hour days on a regular basis. Now and then is ok.

    But this isn't wartime. We haven't had a nationwide tsunami. There's no alien invasion.

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