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Holiday pay reduction for ALL teachers, permanent or supply - is anyone else aware of this?

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by denzel2000, Oct 14, 2011.

  1. Please ignore the above. It appears to have been an administrative error brought about by the move to the new system. It was as simple as that I'm afraid - no great conspiracy. I did get underpaid but payroll have acknowledged it was an error on their part (it wasn't helped when they initially tried to justify the error by claiming it was to do with the re-calculation of holiday pay, but hey-ho).
     
  2. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    Our holiday pay <u>IS </u>affected but only if you are on supply or temp contracts. My LA told me that if I am employed up to the last day of the summer term (I'm ona 1 yr temp contract), then I'll be paid all the way through the summer as normal. If, however, I am removed from school the day before the end of term (and my contract says it terminated "on or before" that date), then I'll not be paid for the 25 closure days ie I will receive no hol pay for 5 weeks out of 6 of the summer holidays. I, too have been following the sell out agreement and McCormack avidly but was unaware of this until my contract flagged up to me that we are now acruing hol pay at 0.2 days per day worked instead of 0.3 as before. It makes a big difference.
     
  3. piglet171

    piglet171 New commenter

    Would I then be correct in surmising that if I covered every Tuesday all year for a probationer's non-contact time, I would lose out if term finished on a Friday?
    All seems very worrying and confusing. Does the holiday pay change affect permanent part time teachers too? I find it hard to believe the powers that be will miss the opportunity of having a go at part timers too.
     
  4. piglet171

    piglet171 New commenter

    I hope they're not making you wait till your next pay day for the money.
     
  5. I'd contact your union for clarification as that sounds like nonsense to me. If you have accrued holiday pay during the term then you have accrued holiday pay and should be paid it - I fail to see how they can turn round and take off 25 days from that, especially when those 25 days occur after the period of the accrual.
    Smacks of 'creative accounting' and putting accountants in charge of education is what has led to this whole sorry mess IMO.
     
  6. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    I did. My union confirmed we are now accruing hol pay at 0.2051 days per day worked instead of 0.338. This means by the end of the year you will have accrued hol payt for all the holiday days but not for the "school closure" days. Hence, if you are entitled to accrued holiday pay, you get 25 days less pay during the summer hols.
     
  7. You will accrue less days, but a day's pay is now calculated as 1/235 x annual salary, so each days is paid at a higher rate. Therefore, your earnings will remain the same for the year.
     
  8. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    Only if I'm in post on the last day of term and therefore am paid for the 5 weeks of school closure days! If not, I lose 5 weeks' pay. My LA told me this and the Union confirmed it. They did say that if my contract is terminated before the end of term, to contact them again, though.
     
  9. Your LA must operate differently from mine - do you only get accrued holiday pay at the end of the school year? As far as I know, it's paid 3 times here over the whole year, which would make a difference at summer holiday time.
    I'm still struggling to understand why they can legally not pay you simply by ending your contract a day early. They would have to be making a reserve for the full amount anyway, so why not pay it? Double dipping at the expense of supply teachers?
     
  10. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    We get paid 1 week's hol pay for Oct, 2 weeks for Xmas, 2 weeks for Spring and the remainder of accrued hol pay is paid out over the summer months. The "closure" days must have been deemed to fall over the summer holidays.
    Yes- as ever, we're the whipping boys (and gals). My contract says it terminates "on or before" the last day of term. The LA were very clear that if I am in post on the last day, I will be paid for the whole school hols but if my contract is terminated before that date (and this would be through no fault of mine!), then I will only be entitled to my accrued holiday pay (not closure days).
    Since we are now accruing hol pay at 2/3 of the previous rate this leaves a shortfall of 5 weeks in the summer.
    I'm furious and all I can do is put money by "in case" and hope that they forget about me and allow me to stay until the final day. My HT says she would back me if they attempt to remove me before the end of the year, but I don't think she'd have much choice if they'd stand to save 5 weeks' pay.
    I don't think I'm the only one who didn't understand the full implications of the reassignment of holidays as school closure days. I was led to believe that this happened to close a loophole in maternity pay arrangements, and suspected it was to force us to take on more CPD during the holidays but I don't recall my (or any other) union flagging this up last year. I followed the situation avidly, and would be surprised if I'd missed it.
    Anyway, I need to bear in mind that I am fortunate this year insomuch as I have a long term post and so am being paid my rightful salary for the main part (other than holidays!) so I shouldn't complain really. My friends stuck on short term are in a much worse situation.
     
  11. Sorry, misunderstood the point you were making!
    Your LA is wrong - they can't just decide not to pay you your accrued leave if they terminate your contract before the last day of term. You have accrued 0.2051 of a day for each day worked. If you have worked the full 195 days of the year (including insets), you have accrued 40 days leave at the new rate, and that is what they have to pay you.
    Assume they do the dirty, and end your contract the week before the end of term. You will still have worked around 190 days (assuming you started on the first day of the session), so will have accrued 39 days holidays. You have had 25 of those days by your reckoning, so they still owe you 14 days.
    So, get your union to write to your HR section, pointing out the number of days worked, the number of holidays accrued and the the number already paid. They then owe you payment for the remainder.
     
  12. I'm not saying that the changes that have been made are right, but it looks to me as though you may be looking at this in the wrong way.
    You mention that you get paid '1 week at October, 2 at Xmas etc', but surely what you actually get is the accrued amount from the term just completed?
    Which in the case of these holidays is 10 weeks=50 days @ 0.2051 per day = 10.25 days.
    Move forward to the last term - usually 13 weeks or 65 days, you would have accrued 65 @ 0.2051 = 13.3 days and this is what you would be paid regardless of how long the break is. Under the old rules, you would have accrued 65 @ 0.338 = 21.9 days - meaning there would still be a shortfall over the six weeks of the holiday - nothing really to do with the '25 closure days '.
    It's fairly clear that, if you have only been paid for a week these holidays, they still owe you the rest - perhaps their plan is to pay you the balance over the summer holiday so that you are less affected financially by the long break? Check it out - don't let them cheat you out of what is yours.
     
  13. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    That's exactly what HR told me- I would get the balance of accrued holiday pay but would not be paid for the remaining 25 days of the summer holiday. As it happens, I am on a 0.8 contract so would have slightly less accrued holiday pay by the summer, but you catch my drift.
     
  14. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    No, we are paid the set days regardless of how much we've accrued in that term. 5 days for Oct, 10 days for Xmas, 10 days for Spring and the balance in the Summer. Normally the balance would work out as summer holiday pay- now it works out as summer holiday pay minus 25 days.
     
  15. Si, can I ask if my understanding of your situation is correct?
    You're on a 12 month contract, albeit 0.8;
    You work the same hours as a permanent teacher ie not a 5 hour day as per supply;
    You have been told that you are accruing holiday pay @ 0.2 days per day worked.
    If accurate, I'd like to run this past my branch of my union. I can understand why, given the working conditions changes, the holiday pay accrual rate has dropped from 0.3 to 0.2 - but if you are working the same hours as a class teacher, IMO you should be accruing at the same rate. I may be wrong, but there appears to be a misinterpretation here which heavily favours your LA. Whilst the changes introduced were cruel, this appears to be beyond that & a cynical attempt to claw back money that is rightfully yours.
     
  16. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    I secured the job last June but my contract was not issued until the end of Sept. The date of termination is given as "on or before" the last day of term in June 2012. So not strictly a 12 month contract, I suppose.
    Yes.
    correct , accrual is now 0.2051 days hol pay for each day worked. Rate used to be 0.338.
    My union branch says ALL tachers are now accruing hol pay at this rate, not just me. The difference is that those entitled to accrued holiday pay (rather than permanent staff) won't get the school closure days pay.

    I'd be grateful if you would let me know what your branch say!
     
  17. More smoke to add to the confusion! This applies to 'all teachers' as in 'all teachers on long term contracts' or includes permanent teachers too?
    Forgot to ask - do you mind telling me to which union you belong?
     
  18. Si N. Tiffick

    Si N. Tiffick Occasional commenter

    ALL teachers- permanent and non permanent. The school closure days are separate from holiday pay.
    Union- the dreaded EIS.
     
  19. The LAs must be falling over themselves laughing that none of this was brought up. I wonder how many other little surprises like this lie in wait for us in this new improved contract brought to you by the SG, Cosla, and the stunned silent majority of teachers in this country?
     
  20. Sorry to stick in my understanding of the holiday pay situation, but we used to have our daily/hourly rate calculated by dividing the annual salary by 261 (195 working days + 66 hols).
    Now after the changes it is calculated minus the closure days (195 + 40=235)
    You are now getting a slightly enhanced daily/ hourly rate to compensate for getting less holiday pay in summer ( only if you are in fortunate position of being paid at correct scale point, I must add!)
    If you were in long term position full time ( paid 7 hours per day at correct scale point) you would actually get more per month/4 week pay than permanent teachers as salary is same for them each pay regardless of hols in that pay period. (might be the only wee positive point to be happy about)
    If you are short term supply , it is still calculated the same except you are being paid at slave rates.
    Hope this is helpful


     

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