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high frequency words/tricky words

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by mancminx, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Well, you could add some context and still be none the wiser:
    I can see the cat on the road.
    I can see the cart on the road.
    15 all?

     
  2. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    We are on the Early Years forum where children are just starting out on the journey to become readers which is the time we need to teach children to actually read the words on the page and not as many do look at the first letter then and the picture and make a guess.
    Once children are reading and have progressed onto longer texts of course they will use context to decide which homograph fits the meaning.
     
  3. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    OK
    The frightened boy climbed onto the enormous cat.
    The frightened boy climbed onto the enormous cart.

     
  4. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    no I'm talking about a real child who has been taught to guess from inital letters and pictures
     
  5. But their response of making a guess from initial letter is their first attempt at using phonics. They are getting with the programme, and failing. If we want them to read the words on the page we need to give them words that are worth reading and as much support as we can, phonic and otherwise. Yes, they are only beginner readers, which is why you wouldn't give them a text like the one Maizie jokes about. But giving texts which are interesting and meaningful, and some experience of reading as opposed to decoding, is a reasonable response to their needs.
     
  6. Well, it wasn't wise for the book to have a picture of a cat and a cart on the same page. Unless the child's grasp of phonics was being tested.
     
  7. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    The book didn't have a picture of either a cat or a cart which is why the child made a random guess wrongly choosing a word they had met previously they could have picked cake, coat, cap, cot, cup ... but they chose cat. The child hadn't been taught to blend or segment words just a long list of sight words from flash cards so I would suggest they were in fact just trying to remember one of the words they knew
     
  8. Nor had they been taught to use context and meaning, presumably. I would give this child credit for recognising the similarity of cart to cat as opposed to any of the other words you list, it's an easy enough mistake. But if this child made that mistake when reading a meaningful text and when independently looking for meaning and therefore listening to themselves they would be likely to grasp that they needed to go back and look at it again. If they were reading because the teacher required them to sound out correctly to decode each word that would not be happening.
     
  9. By the way, Msz, did the child learn the words from flashcards used at home? I can't imagine any teacher teaching reading like this, and I hope you don't think I am advocating this flashcard approach with words like this.
     
  10. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    You are making huge assumptions about both the book and the context of the child's reading and indeed about the child.
    The book was a normal picture book (not a phonic reading scheme) the child had chosen to look at the book independently to another child. On each page was text and a speech bubble (which she tried to read) and in one bubble were the words " I can see the cart" (from memory it may have been a cart) The picture showed two children the next page had a picture of a go cart... It was quite interesting that even when she turned the page and saw the cart she didn't say "cart".
    If she had been able to read the main text she may have worked out the word from context but not from the speech bubbles.
     
  11. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Oh and the child was six just entering Y1 after 3+ terms in another area and apparently ORT stage 6 according to her records. She could read the reception 100 words in isolation but not in context and struggled on sentence reading assessments.
     
  12. Well, initially you said the child had been taught to use initial sounds, which is basic phonics. Now you say she only knows HFWs in isolation. So I have to admit I'm struggling to make sense of any points you might be making. You say she is not using context and the book is not a phonic reading scheme book. I can see plenty of reasons here why she is not reading, not simply the fact that she has not made good progress with phonics, or that she has not been taught using a phonic reading scheme. you are being somewhat disingenuous saying that I am making assumptions when you keep changing your description of the example you are using. I also suspect that you are taking my comments very literally. For instance, when I mentioned that a phonics only book might not give much in the way of context I was not assuming that the book your examples child was using was from a phonic scheme, I was simply making an associated comment, to help you see the logical consequences of what you were saying.
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    No it most certainly isn't basic phonics!
     
  14. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I didn't think when I started that I needed to give you a detailed account of the observation but you seemed determined to blame the child's difficulty on phonics when the truth is she had been taught nothing more than sound grapheme correspondences ...and the main strategy was to look at the initial sound.
    This might be your idea of phonics [​IMG]
     
  15. Where have you got the idea that I blame her difficulties on phonics? I don't prescribe to the notion that one method is anathema and another is panacea. I believe in being pragmatic and not dogmatic, and in the idea of starting with the child and not the theory.Did I say, at any time that her difficulties were due to phonics? I'm sorry if I gave that impression.And every phonics programme I have come across has started with the simple, one letter/one sound, most common correspondences - which seems to be what your child is applying. I agree she is not blending correctly, but it is my understanding that SP advocates that children start with these simple correspondences and then blends from the single phoneme to the word, rather than analysing words and segmenting them into phonemes before learning the graphemes. Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure this is what Debbie advocates as she has said that the ability to segment and blend sounds, without the use of the written letters is not necessary as a precursor to learning GPCs. Obviously that may be a false memory. Put me right if necessary.
     
  16. Correct memory, thumbie![​IMG]
     
  17. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    However what she isin fact doing is looking at the word and the word she knows from the 100 HFW is cat as cart isn't on there ... so she says cat.
     
  18. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    No one is suggesting that she needs the ability to blend and segment without the use of written letters but she has been taught the sound grapheme correspondence just not how to apply them.
    So I'm not sure what that has to do with this??
    She knows most of the 44 PGCs but doesn't try to blend through the word (written letters on paper) ... she looks at the first letter and guesses. If there is a picture she looks at the letter & the picture and guesses.
    The 4 part phonics lesson is
    Review previously taught phonemes
    Teach (new phoneme)
    Apply - blend and segment
    Practise - read & write
     
  19. You've changed your mind about her using the initial sound strategy?
    Can't you give her a little credit for her attempt at this word? As you say, without context to support her she recognises the first and last letter (and one of the medial) and knows those as 'cat'. She just needs some helpful person to step in and teach her the next step, and maybe point out what she is doing and why it (partly) works. And also talk about how the picture on the next page shows a go cart (possibly not in her vocabulary). This achievement could be used as a stepping stone rather than as proof of bad teaching or whatever it is you are trying to draw from it.


     
  20. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    No I haven't changed my mind!
    added the underlined bit just so it's clear for you
    because obviously she could have said
    the that not look put
    and with then don’t could
    a all were come house
    to we go will old
    said can little into too
    in are as back by
    he up no from day
    I had mum children made
    of my one him time
    it her them Mr I’m
    was what do get if
    you there me just help
    they out down now Mrs
    on this dad came called
    she have big oh here
    is went when about off
    for be it’s got asked
    at like see their saw
    his some looked people make
    but so very your an if she was just plucking a word from the list
     

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