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high frequency words/tricky words

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by mancminx, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Supposing you were learning to play the piano, thumbie. You know enough to be able to pick out simple tunes. Would you expect to be left to 'infer' the rest for yourelf or would you expect your piano teacher to take you on to higher things? Like complete chords and Beethoven sonatas?

  2. When it comes to reading music, there's an amazing amount you can infer from a very little knowledge. Learning to play the piano though, demands many other skills beside reading the music. I can't see that there's much of a comparison between playing a Beethoven sonata and reading a text. The skills needed are different. One thing though, learning to read and learning to play the piano need practice above all. No good piano teacher would claim that his/her pupils' success was down to guidance alone. The success comes from within the pupil, their motivation, dexterity, musicality, dedication and hard work.
    I don't think I said that teachers should not be guiding children in their reading. But I do think if a child needs to learn every single phonic correspondence (as I said beyond the first 100 or so) before they can read a text of reasonable difficulty, for them, there is something very worrying going on. Maybe the child is reading a text that is way too difficult in terms of vocabulary, having been judged on phonic content alone. Maybe the child is over-reliant on phonics and is reading word for word without thinking about the content. Maybe the child has never had those experiences that help him/her to value reading for its own sake.
    Clearly if the child is still stuck at the decoding stage they will need to carry on learning to decode. But I would be very concerned that the child also gets the right texts and the right guidance so that they can start to understand that they can infer, if they add other skills to their reading behaviour.

  3. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that.Once a child knows the "basics" many new graphee representations are introduced in what Debbie refers to as "incidental" teaching. In the most simplistic form if I'm reading the Gingerbread Man or Jack and the Beanstalk to reception I might ask what sound we hear at the beginning of ginger and giant and then look at which letter represents that sound. Next time we meet a word where /j/ is represented by "g" I remind the class about ginger or giant ...
  4. I'm no expert but I would have thought those two options for /j/ would be taught with the first 44, not after the first 100. My point is that once a good working knowledge of the GPCs is established children should be able to infer the more obscure, because by then they would be reading the majority of words they encountered. Deducing the others shouldn't be too difficult, provided they were within their vocabulary. Do it through incidental teaching, maybe, but also teach them to use their deductive powers.
  5. In other words, give them some freedom from the teacher and from the narrow confines of the phonics. If children think they need to know the GPCs in every word they are going to feel very defeated by new words containing new GPCs when reading independently.
  6. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    thumbie I was giving an example of "incidental learning" in the early years and yes /j/ is one of the 44 phonemes but the "g" representation would not be taught initially. For those following L&S it would not be taught until Y1 ...
    Surely that is what is happening
  7. For a really good literacy resource that I have used in small intervention groups, look up Ruth Miskin's Read Write Inc. program. It's a comprehnsive scheme that ranges from early phonics to competent readers. It includes many high frequency words: simple (green words), often CVC words e.g. Cat, Mat, Dog etc. or tricky graphemes (red words), which are high frequency words with an uncommon grapheme e.g. the, my, said, he etc. In the later stages challenge words are introduced, these are high frequency, common grapheme words.

  8. thumbie, does everything have to spelled out for you? Can you not tell when someone is giving an 'example' of something, not setting up an in depth analysis of what things are being done when.
    [quoteuser="thumbie"] I'm no expert [/quote]

  9. Ur all right! There is a code, but when teaching systematic phonics practitioners generalise that its tricky if they have not yet learned the code ( maybe working within an earlier phase within the letters and sounds document!)
    For example chair is tricky for early reception as they hav not yet learned the air trigraph yet for yr 1 pupils it is not tricky and as soon as the trigraph is taught explicitly it becomes decodable!
    Hope this helps!
  10. Well, welcome to the thread, Mrs T. Have you read all of it? [​IMG]
  11. High frequency words being used "frequently" cease to be tricky ,other words remain tricky till you learn how the many rules of spelling work and if you don't you use spell check.[​IMG]
  12. I always say "<u>tricky-for-now</u>" words, as there is a code, as explained by others below, but it may be one that is taught later (eg. advanced code)
  13. Yes, Msz, I understand that you were giving an example, but it only had limited relevance to the discussion at that time, which was about the most infrequently occuring GPCs. I think maizie was writing about children who had already been taught the most common GPCs. If I am right, maizie was saying that some children, despite knowing a very large proportion of the GPCs they encounter in a text, still have to be taught every new GPC that comes up. To me, this shows very weak skills of deduction. Still dependent on the teacher, these children lack the inner resources they need to use their reading for purpose.

    I agree with you about 'incidental teaching', but much of the phonics teaching that is advocated is far from incidental, it's 'phonics first' all the way.
  14. Let's hope it is decodable before the children are taught the trigraph, if the children are encountering it frequently in their reading. The very point about tricky words is that children need to be able to decode them before they have reached the point in the teaching sequence when they will be taught the 'tricky' GPC, so they can read the text. It's not really the word that is tricky. It's a GPC it contains.

  15. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    thumbie Igave you a very simple example of the type of phonics teaching that happens in many schools. Instead of picking the Gingerbread man story I could have chosen The Three Billy Goats Gruff and the "incidental learning/teaching" would the grapheme "dge" representing /j/ or I could have chosen Commotion in the Ocean and the "incidental learning/teaching" would be "ti" and "c" representing /sh/ ..
    If children are taught the alternatives (and to actively look for them) early they are well equiped when they meet more unusual representations.
    I'm very unsure of what your experience of phonics teaching has been but your description is very much at odds with mine.
  16. I'm basing my description of phonics teaching with what I have seen advocated on here and advice received either personally or found on various sites and documents about teaching SP, Msz. Maybe there's nobody out there actually teaching it as advised, who can tell?
    This was maizie's statement:
    "There are about 160 - 180 common correspondences, some children need to be explicitly taught all of them."
    And I simply said that it was very worrying if children had to be taught every GPC and didn't infer them when reading texts of suitable levels of difficulty.
    I have no argument with the teaching of phonics as an essential part of teaching reading, or with discrete (or incidental) teaching of phonics. What gets me going is the narrow-minded rejection of other strategies which can help children to read, and this persistent confusion of skills in phonics with skills in reading. To me, a child who needs to be taught every GPC explicitly is lacking some important reading skills, and alongside the explicit teaching of correspondences I would be looking at their ability to recall, comprehend and use what they were reading.
  17. And, just to clarfy, I was talking about the GPCs children would come to later in their phonics training, after learning the first 100 or so GPCs. These would be the less frequently found ones, I'm sure you would agree. I doubt 'dge' would feature, but maybe I'm wrong. I would be very hard pressed to identify the 160-180 maizie writes about, but I'm sure she knows her stuff. I wonder if there is a list anywhere?
  18. Anybody who understood and practised good phonics teaching would be able to identify the 160 -180 correspondences I am talking about.
    You will find lists of correspondences as charts in various forms on Debbie's website www.phonicsinternational.com
    All you have to do is find a chart and count the correspondences.
    Yes, I do know my stuff, as does Msz and many other people.
    Can you tell us how you judge that a text is a suitable level for a child. Do you use a reading scheme or book banding? What are you looking for in 'fitting' a text to a child?
    Also, as a matter of interest, what age group do you teach and, dare I ask, how do your pupils do in their KS1 & KS2 SATs; how many achieve the expected level for reading?
  19. To save you time, I've had a look. Debbie lists about 160.

  20. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Yes there are lists which are often linked to when people request help with phonics Letters & Sounds lists over 100 and Debbie has produced a very comprehensive overview of sound grapheme correspondence
    a rough list from me ...
    1. /b/ b, bb
    2. /d/ d, dd, ed
    3. /f/ f, ph
    4. /g/ g, gg
    5. /h/ h 6. /j/ j, g, ge, dge
    7. /k/ c, k, ck, ch, cc, que,
    8. /l/ l, ll
    9. /m/ m, mm, mb
    10. /n/ n, nn, kn, gn
    11. /p/ p, pp
    12. /r/ r, rr, wr
    13. /s/ s, se, ss, c, ce, sc
    14. /t/ t, tt, ed
    15. /v/ v, ve
    16. /w/ w
    17 /y/ y, i
    18. /z/ z, zz, ze, s, se, x
    19. /th/ th
    20. /th/ (voiced) th
    21. /ng/ ng, n
    22. /sh/ sh, ss, ch, ti, ci
    23. /ch/ ch, tch
    24. /zh/ ge, s
    25. /wh/ (with breath) wh
    26. /a/ a, au
    27. /e/ e, ea
    28. /i/ i
    29. /o/ o, a, au, aw, ough
    30. /u/ u, o
    31. /?/ a, a_e, ay, ai, ey, ei
    32. /?/ e, e_e, ea, ee, ey, ie, y
    33. /?/ i, i_e, igh, y, ie
    34. /?/ o, o_e, oa, ou, ow
    35. /?/ u, u_e, ew
    36. /oo/ oo, u, oul
    37. /??/ oo, u, u_e
    38. /ow/ ow, ou, ou_e
    39. /oy/ oi, oy
    40. /ar/ ar
    41. /?ir/ air, ear, are
    42. /ir/ irr, ere, eer
    43. /or/ or, ore, oor
    44. /ur/ ur, ir, er, ear, or, ar
    there are probably more ...

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