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Helping children who struggle to apply phonic knowledge?

Discussion in 'Primary' started by Msz, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. As a general rule, I do not question those taking part in my projects - it may be that they are using Reading Recovery - in this particular instance, the Senco volunteered the information that they do Jolly Phonics.
  2. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Eddie I'm just pointing out it isn't a good example to prove your point. You need a school that teaches phonics and has failed rather than a RR school.

  3. In terms of 'intervention' for pupils who are slower-to-learn, or weaker, readers than their peers, I would suggest taking a look at the Simple View of Reading model to consider the broad reading profile of the children concerned.
    It may well be that some children need intervention of just language comprehension activities because they can read the words on the page well - or it may well be that children who have good language comprehension may be weak at lifting the words off the page - in which case this might be a lack of alphabetic code knowledge and/or blending skill - or it may well be that the pupils lack both the technical skills of reading and the language comprehension.
    Before I could comment on any particular group of children, of course I would need much more information - including spending some time with the pupils themselves and their teachers to understand the context properly.
    It is not possible to pass on comments of any value in the simplistic way you invite via a message forum based on the comments of this teacher or that.
  4. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    If the school is using PM benchmarking and level 16 they are using RR methods possibly using JP for the phonics input.

  5. I dont think there are any teachers interested in 'doing my projects' I think their interest is in boosting their pupils reading and writing skills. Incidentally, one of the Senco who took part in one of my projects attended a local authority training session conducted by you but is now a PL user.
    Why not confront the teacher on the senco forum and advise her that she is probably not doing phonics correctly since you offer your services on the RRF forum as an expert. I cannot understand your reluctance.
  6. Eddie I'm just pointing out it isn't a good example to prove your point. You need a school that teaches phonics and has failed rather than a RR school.

    This school certainly uses 'Jolly Phonics' and I have literally dozens of schools using Jolly Phonics,Letters and Sounds etc and many who have attended SP courses. It is rare indeed to come across a school that does not use a commercial phonics programme. I have no issues with Jolly Phonics or SP courses or any other phonics programmes - my issue is that children do not all learn in the same way and that it is extremely questionable practice to persist with phonics with a small minority who are clearly not learning by this exclusive route. I regard philosophy as harmful and contrary to good teaching practice in particular when it can be shown that a time-limited intervention will render phonics exercises more accessible to these children.
  7. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    She would probably react the way you did when I said our pupils didn't engage with PL.
  8. I don't really care one iota WHY a child is failing to acquire good literacy skills. To me, it is wholly unimportant whether it is the fault of the head teacher or the class teacher of the particular programme they are using - all of that is entirely irrelevant as far as I am concerned. What matters to me is that they are failing and that they are failing needlessly and that their literacy skills deficits can be put right quickly and easily and their self-confidence restored.
    A mind that is closed to anything other than phonics will not bring that about . but PL can! Another frequent poster who is a phonics enthusiast has requested a copy of my PL approach - it will be interesting if she actually uses it with children and not just as a means of criticising it!
  9. It wouldn't be appropriate to 'confront' any teachers about their methods and their pupils.
  10. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    If my mind was closed to PL would I have requested a copy of PL for the Y6 teacher Eddie. Beyond passing it on I had no involvement (so no influence) other than reporting her feedback
  11. It wouldn't be appropriate to 'confront' any teachers about their methods and their pupils.
    No - but surely as a concerned phonics expert it would be appropriate to put them on the right path by advising them of a more productive way of resolving their pupils difficulties with reading and writing.
    Your reply smacks of an avoidance strategy. Perhaps they have already tried your methods - they are not using PL as a general teaching strategy - only as a time imited intervention to restore literacy skills deficits. I have no doubt that they use a phonics approach in their early years teaching and I believe they are right to do so. You are suggesting that they may not be working as effectively as they should and I would have thought that in that circumstance it would be entirely appropriate for you or one of your acolytes to advise them. You could ask them perhaps to expand a little on what other methods they have tried before taking such a drastic step throughout the entire school - I'm quite sure that you are too professional to go blundering in - in a way that would cause offence.

  12. <h3 class="r">Reading Reform Foundation &bull; Information</h3>rrf.org.uk/messageforum/Cached<font color="#aaaaaa">Share</font> Shared on Google+. <a id="srslcl_0" class="pplsrslcl">View the post.[/URL]You +1'd this publicly. UndoInformation. You have been permanently banned from this board. Please contact the Board Administrator for more information. A ban has been issued on your IP ...
    I just Googled up Reading Reform Foundation and got this interesting comment which I have cut and pasted onto this page. I regard that as a real accolade!
  13. eddie,
    You have posted the same message on this forum time and time again and I have told you, time and time again, that we have only ever barred one person from the RRF forum and it most certainly wasn't you.
    I have no idea why you are getting that message.
    Have you any idea what your IP address is? If you know it you could pm me with it and I will investigate the problem.
  14. There is no problem really - Somebody who has been following this thread emailed me this morning stating that Debbie runs a 'Ask the Expert' thread on the RRF forum and I thought I would take a look at some of the pearls of wisdom there - that was when I encountered this - it doesn/t actually prevent me from entering the site although I assume that it would prevent me from posting a comment if I wanted to. I don't, so there is no difficulty.
    At one time, many years ago, I did use a dedicated IP address but no longer so I assume my IP address changes every time I go onto the internet. I assume that this message is a left-over from a time when somebody must have banned me - I simply do not believe that it is just a computer error.
    I recently answered a John Walker (Sounds-Write) post on the Literacy Blog and lo an behold his response was to block the site with the message 'No more comments accepted on this thread!" Do you think that that was just another computing error? I;m afraid I don't believe pigs can fly!"
    As for reports, the Irish project schools should be reporting on the 20th of December on this forum - just a group of individual schools who have been using the PL approach for a couple of months - I maintain no record of these schools - I have had no contact with any of them during the project and I cannot even guarantee that they will report but if they do - I expect their outcomes to be more forthright than any of the carefully spun, so-called 'transparent' research reports that I have read recently.
    A Scottish group of 9 to 12 schools sponsored by the Highland Area council will be reporting on this forum at the end of February and again, although these schools may prepare reports for their own authority, I will only be able to read the comments they care to place on the forum - now that's what I call 'transparency'
    The Charleston Academy leads the field internationally in using PL to resolve literacy deficits among Year 7 children. They have four years of incredible 'before and after' data which includes children formally diagnosed as 'dyslexic' They intend to produce a video of their efforts quite soon .
    Thanks for offering to resolve the banning issue but its not important to me - I regard it as quite funny..
  15. I'm really sorry, eddie, it's not for me to intervene with an individual teacher's actions, her school and the decisions made at that school - and certainly not through a third party's suggestion.
    If teachers want advice, they will seek it out specifically so the ball is in their court.
  16. Well of course I accept that but they did ask me for advice and I sent them a copy of the PL CD and advised them to try it as a time-limited intervention with children in any Year group who were not responding well to conventional phonics teaching. You will have read their reaction on the Senco forum.
    This is not some carefully spun piece of promotion - and I have collected literally hundreds of similar reports over the years. It will be interesting to see if the N. Irish and Scottish reports are similar or will they, like MSZ uniquely 'uninfluenced' reaction find it 'creepy' and unengaging. Interesting that only a dedicated phonics exclusivist would come up with that 'uninfluenced' reaction. Somehow I dont think that the school reporting on the senco forum or any of the other project participants who actually used the project resources would agree with her - perhaps that's why she is unwilling to respond to my suggestion that she offers them her personal brand of 'support'

  17. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Who found it "creepy" Eddie?
    For your information I handed your CD to the HLTA who couldn't get it to work so I installed it for her and that was the end of my involvement.
    If I can remind you, you decided the problem was that our pupils were working at too high a level to benefit from PL [​IMG]
    actually Eddie I do offer support but not to those schools already committed to using PL
  18. Somebody's having you on, eddie. Debbie doesn't 'run' any threads on the RRF forum and we certainly don't have an 'Ask the Expert' one.
  19. Debbie wrote " It may well be that some children need intervention of just language comprehension activities because they can read the words on the page well - or it may well be that children who have good language comprehension may be weak at lifting the words off the page - in which case this might be a lack of alphabetic code knowledge and/or blending skill - or it may well be that the pupils lack both the technical skills of reading and the language comprehension."
    What does it matter why the child is not responding well to a phonics programme when every one of them responds immediately to a PL approach as happened in the Year 2 Senco's case. The point is that whatever of these possible underlying causes, they all started as non or near-non readers and achieved the expected norm at Key Stage 1 just one term later. They no longer need PL - now they can carry on with the normal literacy work alongside their peers.
    A poor reader is someone who has not assimilated all of the sound-symbol relationships and conversely a good reader is someone who has assimilated them. Another poster on this thread learned to read by the Look-Say method - the important thing is that she (and millions of others) learned to read viz to assimilate all of the grapheme- phoneme correspondences without ritual instruction. This is the strongest conceivable evidence that it is possible to learn all of the grapheme-phoneme correspondences without learning them ritually.
    If a child is not acquiring literacy skills at the same rate as his or her peers, do you really believe that the best philosophy is to carry on with the same strategy that is already failing them in the belief that they will probably learn them eventually or to try an altenative time-limited intervention which has been proven beyond any doubt to be effective and which will enable them to assimilate all of the grapheme-phoneme correspondences.
    Proof positive of the effectivenes of PL is not my research although that is extensive enough - it is the vast body of practical experience of commercial teaching organisations such as Rosetta Stone - my work merely confirms what they had already established and what is being demonstrated on a daily basis by Phil Kellman at UCLA.and other universities.

  20. Vanadesse

    Vanadesse New commenter

    Wow this has been busy since I was last on! Seemed to really open up a can of worms here.

    I tell her, every time, that it's spelled incorrectly. It's one of her key words at the moment, so it's highlighted when it's done incorrectly, which is still every time. It's not the only word though. I try to get them to look at words and see if they look right, it's just getting used to it I think because there's no rule as to why it is saw and not sor really. I don't think it was this complicated when I was at school!

    What ones do you use?

    Exactly what mine are like! So obviously they know it, they just don't seem to apply it in their writing. Well, some don't. Most are pretty good but there's a couple that really seem to struggle. As I said before, I really focus on the what 'looks right' because that's what I as an adult still rely on and think that that's a point they need to get to too.

    What a shame that this thread, which was me asking for practical advice, has turned into a 14 page argument/debate between a few people with actually very little useful posts at all. 14 pages later and I am actually non the wiser about how to help this girl apply her phonic knowledge in her spelling, waste of my time reading it really!

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