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Greening opens way for new grammar schools

Discussion in 'Education news' started by FrankWolley, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. nearmiss

    nearmiss Lead commenter

    You are Michael Gove and I claim my £,72,000
  2. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    So rather than challenging those few (and their parents), your solution is to cream off the most able to some grammars and confine the rest to schools for losers.

    You could help towards those "thousands" being denied an outstanding education by switching your own focus to those three or four feral students in your own classes and get a grip on their behaviour. Try providing them with a chef's pinny and a footpump and see how that works out.
  3. GeordieKC

    GeordieKC Occasional commenter

    I completely agree there are major behaviour and attitude issues in many schools that are not being adequately addressed. However I cannot see how creating grammar schools to remove some of the "good" students is going to address that, the "decent" students that get left behind would simply suffer even more.
  4. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    There is an element of this, however it's also the case that the few "good"/bright/talented kids are able to stand out and perhaps more easily gain recognition. They also get very positive attention by the teachers albeit in between those teachers having to deal with the problem kids.

    What can't be avoided is the stigma attached to the school itself, tarnished in a flood of snobbery and ignorance.
    delnon likes this.
  5. delnon

    delnon Lead commenter

    Hence the need for inspirational heads who combine firm discipline, strong support for middle managers and class teachers, vision and charisma. I had the privilege of working for just such a head for a few years in Essex.
    Just the sort of head, IHMO, who is being hunted out of state education. :mad:
    redlamp2 likes this.
  6. hhhh

    hhhh Lead commenter

    Can we trust all primary teachers to decide (especially with the pressures on them to conform, according to these boards)?
    One of my children got great assessments at primary for 3 years, then low ones with the next teacher. Not that she didn't like him, but she didn't think he was as able as the others. He seemed to work as hard. Equally some of the others who didn't do so well in other years got top assessments from her.
    One day of exams seems unfair for other reasons.
    OP makes the point about white middle-classes taking over-at the only grammar I worked in, although it was a mainly white area, only 65% ish of the students were white. One of the mums said it is because white families are less likely to value education and be strict-she said they were far less likely to bother engaging a tutor-so a very different situation to the school you went to.
    I'm torn about this issue.
    I think it isn't fair-how can you judge children at 11-but let's face it, we already have segregation as the rich can use indys and tutors, so at least this way poorer families have a chance. And at least in the area I worked in then, all the schools seemed better than areas than had all comps. And the grammar was way ahead of its time in pastoral/SEN support.
    And even in a comp, the experience that nice middle-class Tabby has in all the top sets might be very different from the bottom set boy who sits in large, noisy classes where children who really should be receiving specialised support aren't...
  7. bonkers 704

    bonkers 704 Lead commenter

    If people think Grammar schools don't have any kids who misbehave and are vile they are deluding themselves. I teach in a selective grammar and without any doubt the worst kids, with a cheeky, insolent, arrogant, entitled attitude I've seen in my 29 years in teaching are in this school. However critical mass is everything, and they are generally cowed by having enough kids who really want to do well and already know what they want to study at Uni and where in Year 8.
    Secondly I will repeat my earlier point that grammar schools cast their net too wide. They should not be allowed to take kids from 25 miles away when the school was set up to benefit poor but bright kids in the immediate locality of the school. Some grammar schools are totally divorced from the communities they sit in the middle of, and recruit almost none of their pupils from it. This is socially divisive and damaging.
    delnon likes this.
  8. nearmiss

    nearmiss Lead commenter

    This is inevitably going to happen. It simply won't be financially viable to open new centres of excellence on premises with grounds and equipment amd expert teachers to offer an enhanced curriculum in every town. So kids will be taxied in from far and wide.
    Enough nostalgia, already.
    We've been sold down the Swanee to pay for Trident. Grammar schools are just teasers to sex up the Education debate. You can't have one.
    If you want an upgrade to first class, you have to pay.
    delnon likes this.
  9. fadikhan2003

    fadikhan2003 New commenter

  10. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    do we condemn all the children to education constantly disrupted by idiots who the system allows to do whatever they like because we object to a few getting a better chance?
  11. nearmiss

    nearmiss Lead commenter

    If you put a point in such emotive terms, then the answer is no, because no one is being condemned, schools are not being dominated by a few badly behaved kids and there are no grammar schools to give the ones who pass an arbitrary selection process what might or might not be a better chance anyway.
    We can't continue discussing how fine the emperor's new clothes might be.
    There aren't any.
  12. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    I think you need to get a grip on reality.
  13. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    There are lots of grammar schools around here. Lots of independents too.
  14. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    there are no grammar schools around here for approximately 40 miles, only one fee paying grammar every 25 miles or so.
    Sadly many of the secondary schools around here are dominated by a minority of poorly behaved young people. Especially once you get below the top set or two in most subjects. Many management teams ignore the behaviour or blame it on a constant stream of new teachers and supply staff.
    HelenREMfan likes this.
  15. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    Which is why challenging those behaviours and attitudes should be the top priority. Thye're not going away otherwise - even if the good kids are ferried off to other places.
    delnon likes this.
  16. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    sadly no one supports the unions so the behaviour and poor management goes on unchallenged. and with schools forced to take no effective action....
    interesting around here to see the huge difference between schools run by the County LA and those run by two city LAs. and even the difference between schools within less than half a mile of each other.
  17. ViolaClef

    ViolaClef Lead commenter

    I knew of a grammar school which was in quite a poor area of the town, but very few children from this area actually went to the grammar school. An outreach programme was started and local schools were invited to participate, allowing their most able Year 5s time to engage with other able children to work together on a variety of challenging and stimulating projects. The grammar school's facilities and transport were offered for this. However I gather that the schools in the poor area on the grammar's doorstep didn't sign up for the programme because they didn't agree with grammar schools, so certainly weren't going to encourage their pupils to go there. I think this was very sad!
  18. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    This sounds implausible.
  19. manc

    manc New commenter

    This sounds plausible.

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