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Grammar question

Discussion in 'Primary' started by WelshMags, Nov 3, 2017.

  1. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    What part of speech is "those" in this sentence.
    "These socks are dirtier than those."
    "These" is a determiner. Does a determiner always have a noun after it? In this sentence you could add socks at the end so that "those" would be a determiner. To me, the second "socks" is implied, so is "those" a determiner too in this case?
     
  2. bonxie

    bonxie Occasional commenter

    In that sentence, 'These' is a determiner because it indicates which socks you're talking about and 'those' is a pronoun because it is used to replace the noun 'socks'. Like many words, 'those' can be different parts of speech in different sentences. It's the plural form of 'that'. Examples are of the different uses are given here: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d...rome..69i57.3099j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     
  3. galerider123

    galerider123 Established commenter

  4. sunshineneeded

    sunshineneeded Established commenter

    Agree with bonxie.
     
    WelshMags and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  5. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    galerider123 likes this.
  6. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    From this information, is there an argument for both as "those" could be argued to be referring to the socks previously mentioned, so could be said to be "previously mentioned, known or understood"?
     
    galerider123 and Lara mfl 05 like this.
  7. galerider123

    galerider123 Established commenter

    WelshMags likes this.
  8. Lalad

    Lalad Senior commenter

    No, because "those" replaces the noun in the sentence under discussion, whereas "these" qualifies it. If you added 'socks' at the end, "those" would indeed act as a determiner - it's precisely because you haven't that it doesn't.
     
    WelshMags likes this.
  9. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    OK, that makes sense.
     
  10. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    Yes, but you can't always rely on just a glossary. Too many words that can appear in more than one category etc. If only it were straightforward!
     
  11. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    Flippin heck!
    Do we actually have to teach children stuff like this these days?

    I've been out of state schools for two years and out of KS2 in state schools for seven. I wouldn't have a clue about this stuff! :oops:

    Poor kids.
     
  12. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    Yep - afraid so! Poor children! I have a very bright top set, so I want to get it right.
     
  13. joannak1

    joannak1 New commenter

    Or is it a pronoun?
     
  14. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    Yes, it is - plural form of the pronoun "that" referring to the more distant item.
    Also "this" can be used as determiner or a pronoun, which can refer to the nearer of two items. (Not its sole
    usage, though.)
     
  15. galerider123

    galerider123 Established commenter

    SPaG...spelling, punctuation and grammar. That list is guidance for teachers though.
     
  16. sbkrobson

    sbkrobson Star commenter

    It is a demonstrative pronoun.
     
  17. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    But look at this link and type in the sentence. It comes up as a determiner. I can still see an argument for both determiner and demonstrative pronoun. I'm sure in the SATs test it will just be a straightforward determiner before a noun, but I want to be sure I know the finer points myself...

    http://parts-of-speech.info/
     
  18. markuss

    markuss Occasional commenter

    The parts-of-speech page comes with the warning below.

    "Computers make mistakes too!"

    It's wrong to give both words as determiners. Definitely. (Not really the computer's fault, though. Blame the programmer.)

    Talking of being wrong, I've had no reply, not even an acknowledgement, to my email asking why Ofsted seems to be endorsing the myth that our children do SATs. (October, HMCI's Commentary.) It's what she calls NCTs, more than once.
    Wonder what she imagines the letters might stand for ("Survey about Teachers"? School Accountability Trials"?)
     
    WelshMags and Lalad like this.
  19. Lalad

    Lalad Senior commenter

    It's not a determiner - it's a pronoun.
    The information in the link is incorrect.
     
    WelshMags likes this.
  20. WelshMags

    WelshMags New commenter

    OK - think I've been convinced it's a pronoun! Thanks everyone!
     

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