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Getting a job after dismissal

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by jpd1903, Jun 26, 2011.

  1. jpd1903

    jpd1903 New commenter

    I'm an NQT and I may soon be dismissed because of gross misconduct, although my union rep says that this would be very harsh. The county personnel lady said a hearing with the governors usually results in dismissal.

    What is the likelihood of be being able to attain a job in September if I am dismissed?
    Will the reasons of my previous dismissal soften the blow (ie. I can prove I was told to do some thing fraudulent by a more senior member of staff and through duress and naivety, I did it).

    Thanks for your time and rest assured I have looked at other forum posts but this seems to be a topic which seldom gets much attention.

  2. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    I number of years ago I was on a PGCE course with someone who had done time for theft and fraud. He was very worried that he would not be able to find a job, but he did even though he had, quite rightly, made a full disclosure of what had happened. Funnily enough, or perhaps not, he got a job in a catholic school.
    What I am trying to say is that it is not impossible to bounce back from adversity but it is not easy either.
    Good luck.
  3. minnieminx

    minnieminx New commenter

    You won't like this answer, but in the current climate, you are going to struggle.

    There is no shortage of teachers, so schools can pick and choose. They are unlikely to choose someone so recently dismissed from a school.

    Saying 'I was told to do it' won't actually help you at all. Teachers spend half their lives saying 'And if they told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?'

    Will you get a reference from your current school?

    You might be better off doing supply teaching for a year or so to build up a relationship with other schools that you can use for a reference and to put some time between the dismissal and your application.
  4. Yep, your card is marked now chuck, and it is possible to get around it, but it's very very very hard in this current climate. You could keep your head down for a few years and then try to get around this when the jobs market isn't so dire. Supply is unlikely to happen, because there is no supply, not for qualified teachers anyway.

    I know it's unfair, well more than just unfair, it's ridiculously stupidly difficult for you, and it shouldn't be like that, but there's not much you can do to change it. Honestly, I'd suggest trying a different career, even if it is only a stop gap until you make your way back into teaching.
  5. minnieminx

    minnieminx New commenter

    I don't know that I agree with this. If someone is dismissed from one post for gross misconduct, why should it be easy for them to get another post almost immediately? If the OP were to start a new permanent post in September, it would make a mockery of the dismissal surely?
  6. You are all missing a key point.
    All disciplinary cases are reported to the GTC. If you have been charged with gross misconduct you will (?should) be represented by a full-time union official. But the GTC are still informed. If you get dismissed you can appeal. However, if you fail on both counts the GTC can suspend or ban you from teaching. Sorry but the outlook does not look good! I know of no head who would risk employing anyone fired for gross misconduct: why would they take that risk?
  7. langteacher

    langteacher Occasional commenter

    Are the rules different for teachers? I didn't think so. Under employment law, if you have been there less than a year, you are not elligble for an appeal.

    It does not look good. All they will be interested in is did you do what you are accused of. They will not be interested in why you did something.

    Someone in my family was dismissed for GM, (not a teacher) to all the rest of the world it was unfair (a technicality) but in the eyes of employment law, she did do what they accused her of and she went all the way through the appeal process and then to tribunal but the found in favour of the employer. If it makes you feel any better, they now have a job but it took about 8 months to get.
  8. Cervinia

    Cervinia Occasional commenter

    In more detail, what happened?
  9. minnieminx

    minnieminx New commenter

    Much as I am also dying to know, it is not a good idea to post any such details on a public forum.
  10. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Hi jpd1903. I'll tell you what I think, as a chair of a governors personnel committee and a chair of a governors staff discipline committee. I think you are asking the wrong question. You haven't been dismissed for GM yet and the priority for you isn't what happens after you are dismissed but making sure you aren't dismissed for GM in the first place.
    We don't know, and understandably you can't tell us, why you might be at risk of dismissal for GM, and your chances of future employment depend a lot on what it is you have done. However, whatever you've done, being dismissed is going to make your chances of employment as a teacher in the near future vanishingly small, and your chances of employment elsewhere not much better, Sorry to sound brutal but there's no point in misleading you.
    You need to put your all into getting your defence to the allegation in line. It isn't true, at least in my school, that governors hearings "usually" result in dismissal. Many GM allegations do, but it's not uncommon for us to find GM not proven and downgrade it to misconduct only. You've already hinted at one line of defence you have - acting on instructions of a senior staff member - and your union should surely be able to find more. If a complete 'acquital' isn't realistic focus on getting the governors staff discipline committee to make a finding of misconduct only, which shouldn't lead to dismissal.
    Make sure you have a senior regional officer of your union representing you, not your school rep. If its an allegation which could result in the GTC barring you from teaching ask for legal representation as well - there's recent case law that where an allegation could result not only in losing your job at your school but also a GTC barring that would lose your livelihood you are entitled to legal representtaion at a governors' hearing. Your union regional office will be familiar with this.
  11. Karvol

    Karvol Occasional commenter

    Nah, go for it. In for a penny...
  12. DaisysLot

    DaisysLot Senior commenter

    Indeed as one other person has said, fight the allegation and prove that the charge of gross misconduct is completely misguided. Avoid being dismissed on that premise without at least a good fight.
  13. jellycowfish

    jellycowfish Occasional commenter

    Should this happen in every case? I went through a disciplinary procedure 2 years ago where my head recommended to the Govs that I should be given Summary Dismissal. Although the Govs disagreed and handed me a warning, the case wasn't reported to GTC, although I expected it to - and so did my Union rep. Strange though, that an incident the Head seemed worthy of sacking was not important enough to be reported....
  14. You poor thing, how miserable for you, and what a horrible thing to happen in your first year.

    You should know that it is not unheard of, It is not even particularly unusual for managers to ask staff to lie, even commit fraud. It is not even unusual for staff to agree. It is not unheard of for staff to then find themselves in trouble.

    It is CERTAINLY not true that a hearing with hte governors usually results in dismissal, or some schools would be losing half a dozen staff a year!

    You might be cheered to hear of the two GM cases I have come across within my friends, in 15 years of teaching. One man was dismissed 3 years ago, for what would actually have been a ciminal offence, although I believe he was set up. He was working full time within 6 months: it took 3 years for his case to reach the GTC, and they found him guilty, but by then he had been with his current employers more than two years, and they didn't care about the GTC verdict.

    Another friend was cleared of GM, but while still being investigated she was job hunting. She was asked at every interview, but was generally treated sympathetically, and yes, did find another job Before being cleared of GM

    I would say don't fear the worst, and if you are dismissed and find your self job hunting, be straight forward and honest about your situation, avoid the trap of being too self justifying, it does not go down well.

    Good luck
  15. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    My advice would repeat what is said elsewhere re fighting the dismissal/misconduct issue and I would advise you not to trust for one second anything said to you by SMT. Do not believe any promises of "no referral to the GTC", "No repurcussion if you just resign" etc etc. If they proceed and the governors back the HT then you must understand that the GTC could well become involved and you will receive double the punishment as they remove your right to work even if they by their own admission accept that there was no bad intention on your part! I would also not be too naive as to believe that possible union reps will fight your case well as I know of someone very poorly represented at the GTC by one union. Use the advice offered here especially by the school governor who was kind enough to write. Learn one of life's hard lessons that many have had to learn.... get anything in future put in writing to cover your own back
  16. Hey, good point. I was going off the fact that the union had said this was harsh, though, and my opinion that there is a culture in education of always being too harsh in these circumstances.
  17. That's the culture I'm talking about.
  18. Rott Weiler

    Rott Weiler Star commenter Forum guide

    Sorry to have to update this. The decision that said you were entitled to legal representation in these circumstances was appealed to the Supreme Court by the school/LA concerned and the Supreme Court has today issued its judgement overturning the original ruling. [Supreme Court judgement in R (G) v Governors of X School [2011] UKSC 30.] You are not entitled to legal representation in a governors' disciplinary hearing unless your school staff disciplinary policy says so (which is very unlikley).
  19. Gardening Leaves

    Gardening Leaves New commenter

    I usually have something to say in threads such as this but I have found this one just so upsetting that it's just too much to engage with, for which I apologise. I was not exactly naive, being a senior leader, but was genuinely shocked at the extent to which (my) colleagues and LEA officers are prepared to go to shift blame onto an individual. For an NQT to find herself in such a position is just the most appalling thing. There cannot be many teachers, new to the profession, who would not just go along with what their managers tell them to do. What saddens me so much is that she is so unaware of the very real possibility that her career is seriously at risk. You can bet your life that the superiors who instructed her to take the action that now places her at risk of dismissal, will distance themselves from it and deny they ever said it.
    I just wanted to applaud the detailed and considered advice you have given this poor NQT, Rott Weiler. I hope she takes it and ensures she has the benefit of union support at the appropriate level.
  20. FollyFairy

    FollyFairy Occasional commenter

    I just wanted to add my sympathies - what you are going through is horrible. Certainly agree with OP - you need regional level support at the meeting.
    Can you get a job after being dimissed? It is not impossible - but it is difficult, mainly cause of the job market... I was dismissed last year, but it only took me 3 months to find another job (though HATE it, but that's a different story!).
    The worst thing about being dismissed is having to declare it on application forms if they ask 'reasons for leaving' - my union advised me just to put 'contract terminated' and leave the explanation for the intervew.
    I had 3 interviews before my current HT interviewed me - I read out a statement that my union helped me to write, was honest and upfront adding that I really wanted an opportunity to start again. I was given that an opportunity and though I really don't like my job (had to move up North away from family... plus other reasons) I very grateful that one HT was able to see the potential in me.
    My advice, seek regional support, ask for a CA. If they don't settle for CA and you are dismissed - make it very clear you will appeal (do all this through your union!) and that you will 'whistle blow' - I did this and it was made very clear to me if I dropped my appeal I would recieve a good reference from teh school - which is what you need to get another job. Plus, do NOT trust any of your collaegues - if push comes to shove, they will do anything and say anything to keep their own jobs/reputation!
    Best wishes and keep us in the loop of how you are.
    p.s PM if you wish.


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