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GCC proposes half-pay for new teachers

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by CanuckGrrl, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. I thought that was going to be a wind up. They want probationers to do more hours for less pay? Did these people actually THINK about their proposals or did they "brainstorm" a hundred ways to save money then write down the ten stupidest?
  2. "A spokeswoman for the council said what was implied was that teachers should receive half of their probationer salary while in their last year at teacher training institutions." I'm a bit worried that, aside from anything else, this council don't seem to have heard of the PGDE. Chances that they've realised probationers have a proper workload and deserve fair pay for it?
  3. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    Also, from the article:
    "Consideration should be given to making this a two year experience for all post-graduates, paid at 0.5 full time salary."
    "A spokeswoman for the council said what was implied was that teachers should receive half of their probationer salary while in their last year at teacher training institutions."
    My first thought was how can it be a two year experience for all post-graduates if they are still in their last year at a teacher training institution? Also where would that leave other graduates?
    Or, are they suggesting that as part of a 4 year education degree, the final year would be spent working in a school on half pay, followed by a further probationary year also on half pay.
    So you could have schools partly staffed by final year students, and probationary teachers, on half pay who, of course, would then have to make way for the next tranche of final year students and probationers.
    What's next, schools partly staffed by prospective teaching candidates taking classes on a voluntary basis to gain experience?
    It wouldn't surprise me - an education system fit for the 21st Century? The way things are going, I doubt if we'll even end up with an education system fit for the 19th Century.
  4. JPM1967

    JPM1967 New commenter

    Spot on. I suspect this is another step on the way to a 'dumbing down' of the 'profession'. Post McCrone they got an influx of high quality PGDE candidates, many of whom had taken a career change and came with valuable life experience and weren't as easy to manipulate given their knowledge of how things were done outwith education. Teaching also became a worthwhile career again for smart school leavers and places on BEd courses became harder to obtain and the calibre of intake also improved. Other than a temporary misbalance between supply and demand, things were looking up...
    Now LAs like Glasgow have concluded that it would be easier to turn the job into glorified child-minding, reduce the wages significantly and attract candidates with lower aspirations. Candidates who will be easier to manage and manipulate?
    This is another way of ratcheting down the salary levels. Instead of £21k to £25k post-probation I can see a much longer path to get from the proposed new starting salary £10k to the top of the scale (wherever that may be). What next? Year - 50%. Year 2 - 60%, Year 3 70% and so on.
    Increasingly, I feel that I was extremely lucky to get into the profession when I did and I am dismayed at the way new recruits and NQTs are being treated.
  5. jonowen

    jonowen Occasional commenter

    They are attacking every stage of our profession except the top end - why can't we get rid of the "once-upon-a-time-I was-a-teacher" level who are no longer in the classroom but moved sideways and are now consultants telling us how to deliver CfE, patronising us with opinions and grinding us down?
    I don't know how much more of this demorallising behaviour, attitude and general depression about the future I can take (BigJimmy had the right idea me thinks!)
  6. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    Oooh oooh, gossip alert? Has he left teaching?
  7. amysdad

    amysdad Established commenter

    Reading this, you do wonder whether these proposals were written before or after Stephen Purcell left the council....[​IMG]
    It's just plain stupid though. The PR person's response about "spreading one salary over two years" suggests that they didn't understand what they were submitting at the time it was sent, but now realise that actually it's stupid and unworkable but can't figure a way out of it.
    One thing, though, that's making me think that this won't happen is the fact it has been proposed by Glasgow, and thus supported by Labour. This almost certainly makes it automatically unpalatable to the SNP so it'll never be adopted.
  8. Its not just them that are being badly treated. I would love a full-time teaching job but all I could get is part-time - although thankfully, given the dire supply situation now, I have a permanent contract.
    However, I rely on supply and now I am to be paid at point 1.
    Also, some LAs is now advertising a whole tranche of jobs but these are not available to people like me - teachers at the top of the scale and with lots of experience. I'm sorry, but as a parent, these proposals are just another example of an education system falling apart and being helped along its way by idiots who are often paid way more than me and who don't have to worry about job security or paying the bills.
  9. jonowen

    jonowen Occasional commenter

    My point exactly - we are all being treated appallingly and have been for a while now; it's only when so many of us are "getting it" and the braver ones amongst us have the courage to speak up that possibly things may change? But I'm not holding my breath. All this worry is not good for any of us and I feel disheartened with life in general. Thinking of summer holidays is no joy as we have to come back and face it all again in August. Have a look round your staffroom and count how many smiling faces you can see; how many of your colleagues have colds, stress related conditions and look like death warmed up?
    That's it in a nutshell Velma.
  10. amysdad

    amysdad Established commenter

    Actually, thinking about it more it's bordering on the illegal.
    Based on a standard 35 hour week, the national minimum wage is £10,792.60 p.a. So already at least the second year would have to rise slightly to reach this level - and whether you'd actually want teachers potentially earning less per hour than the cleaners or dinner ladies in the school (not to belittle either) is a point of argument.
    The national minimum wage is agreed by Westminster each year. This means that - for probationers at least - the salary would be subject to agreement not in Scotland but in London. Notwithstanding that it would break the Scottish joint negotiations which the SNP have pledged to keep, I can't see Salmond agreeing to give any powers of any sort to London.
    In addition, I seem to recall that the SNP were supportive of the idea of a "living wage" - which would be more than the minimum wage and allowed for the cost of living. Most estimates are that this would be around £7.50 per hour, possibly more in Edinburgh / Glasgow. Assuming that, it would take the minimum payable to £13,650 in the second year at least - busting completely the teachers' pay scale.
    There's been some loopy policy decisions from Glasgow City Council over the years, but this one takes the biscuit.
  11. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    The coffers are empty. They are gettimg more desperate than crack whores in Jalalabad. Note that Glasgow City Council (as far as I'm aware) have not advertised any Teaching posts yet.
  12. Dominie

    Dominie New commenter

    GCC. Bunch of f**kwits. A Council which valued education so much they ended up with TWO Directors of Education and had to get rid of one of them with a massive golden handshake.
  13. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    Is that a bit like a golden shower? Waste of bodily fluids if you ask me.
  14. Of all the utterly stupid suggestions that are being made by local authorities individually and COSLA collectively attacking the pay and conditions of teachers, this one has enraged me and dumbfounded me more than any other. It is utterly, utterly stupid.
    I spent four years on my B.Ed, having left a fairly decent paid job. I worked part time in Tesco throughout, earning enough money (just) to survive. This was a good part time job for me and I was able to juggle it round lectures, which don't always start at 9am or last all day. During placements it was harder, more demanding, but it had to be done. I had to support myself and provide money for my family.
    Last year was my probation year. I was in school every day before 8am. I stayed almost every night til after 5.30pm. I gave it 100% to try and provide the best opportunities I could for the children in my class. This year I am trying to do the same.
    Would anyone really have wanted me to be working from 4pm to 10pm or later in a supermarket then turning up at school to teach their child the next morning? Would anyone have wanted their teacher to be working in a bar til midnight or later - as many of my friends did - then appear before their son or daughter at 9am expected to deliver stimulating and challenging lessons? When exactly would preparation be done? Marking?
    Because that is exactly what probationer teachers would have to do to be able to afford to live. Continue what ever jobs got them through university during their probation year. Probationer teachers have a full time job, make no mistake about it. Perhaps they are not in front of a class for the full week - although remember COSLA want it increased to 0.8 anyway - but what teacher is with McCrone time. During the probation year, let' face it many of us work even harder than we do in future years as we are out to impress, to try and secure a job for our futures.
    I apologise for going on, and I know I posted this in the national Opinion but I am furious, raging at this utterly stupid suggestion. Probationer teachers are doing a full time job - they should not be paid half wages during that year.
  15. You should post it everywhere you can. It's a very persuasive argument and we need people to get annoyed and make parents realise just how any proposed changes could affect their child's education.
  16. Am I missing something here?
    The proposal is to pay £10700 in the final year or college and £10700 in the probation year which amounts to £21400 over the 2 years which is the same as what they get now (unless they get paid in their final year of college currently?), but with less tax to pay.
    Where is the ripoff?
  17. Freddie92

    Freddie92 Occasional commenter

    Your missing the point though. Technically there is no ripoff but what it does do is send out a signal that teaching for a year can be worth less than a cleaner.

    So it may start like this, looking as if because you would pay less tax that it is actually a good thing, but it is another erosion of our status as professionals.

    This is the beginning of a slippery slope to poor pay and conditions. If we want education to be the best we need to attract high calibre graduates. We don't want just the people who have done a 3 year degree straight from school who do their postgrad and go straight back into school with little or no work/life experience. We want Masters level educated teachers, we want experienced professionals in addition to the people who do the SUS route (which I am still to be convinced is a healthy option). I have never worked out how a 21 year old teaching 17 year olds can be really that good. You do get exceptions, but they are few and far between, though we do currently have an excellent young teacher in our school but she is the only one I have seen in that age bracket who either a) wanted to be kids best pals or b) mucked about too much like an idiot in the classroom or even c) couldn't control the class as kids had zero respect for someone 5 minutes older than they are.
  18. With respect, you are missing everything.
    As I tried to explain in my post, It is not about losing money - it is about being able to live. It is about being able to do your job to the best of your ability and to the standards you would expect of yourself, the standards being expected of you by the GTCS, by parents wanting you to stand up in front of their children and deliver a lesson having not just finished a shift in a bar eight hours earlier.

    Would you do your job full time for a full year for only half the wages? I am sorry, not everyone will have the discipline or ability to save up every penny of the other half of the wages during their final year at uni and not spend a penny. Then there is the question of will it affect the student loan you can have during the final year of studying? Would you still get the loan if you have an income of more than £10 k in that final year.
    This is asking probationer teachers - who are already qualified and are seeking FURTHER professional qualification - to do a full time job on half wages that would have to be supplemented with other employment.
  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Since when was being a STUDENT the same thing as being a (probationary) TEACHER?
    By all means pay students for their final year of STUDY (with placements) if you so wish but you have to PAY (probationary) TEACHERS to do their JOB. It's their SALARY for being teachers we are talking about here not a bursary for being a student.


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