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Gaining QTS after completing PGCEi?

Discussion in 'Teaching abroad' started by a_nofal, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. grdwdgrrrl

    grdwdgrrrl Occasional commenter

    COBIS is doing a webinar just on this topic.
  2. Tararose212

    Tararose212 New commenter

    I’ve graduated from the PGCEI through Nottingham. I have several friends who also done the Sunderland. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME OR MONEY.

    I wish I had someone to advise me better.

    3 years Intl experience came home could not even join the sub list, could not teach and get paid even as a unqualified teacher this course is NOT recognised in the UK or the ME. KHDA, ADEK, education councils in the UK no one recognised this as a teaching qualification. The laws are changing to throw out these awful scam courses where

    1) you must be a fully licensed teacher with qualifications from your home country.
    2) hold a teaching certificate (which this is not) and QTS.

    You can gain QTS in England without this course. Doing this course and getting qts still does not mean you are a fully licensed teacher. The only teaching merit you would have is the Qts.

    If you have this qualification as you are teaching I would seriously question the school in which you are working and if you are even on their books as a teacher.

    no matter what they tell you don’t do it it’s all a sales pitch that even I fell for, they are preying on vulnerable people. Making millions every year it’s a total disgrace and Nottingham university to be affiliated with this scam is an utter disgrace.

    please save yourself the hassle save your money and do the proper pgce in UK which is what I have resorted to now after paying almost £6k for a completely useless piece of paper.
    yasf likes this.
  3. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    Unfortunately I appear to be one of the few voices that cry out against the PGCEi as a worthless qualification and is used in a fraudulent way to fool parents that teachers in a school are qualified.

    I hope that Tararose takes the opportunity while in the UK to obtain QTS via the Teaching in Schools Program, AO or even a proper University based PGCE.
    yasf likes this.
  4. BlueHues

    BlueHues New commenter

    Feb31- have a day off! My partner has the PGCSEi and is a fantastic teacher. The course needs more rigour in terms of lesson observations and feedback. I also don’t have a PGGE- I have the GTP- which offered me a starting salary of £26k and student loans paid off unlike the PGCE (which I was accepted onto by the IOE) back in 2003.

    Routes can be flexible and a good teacher is a good teacher.

    There needs to be more accountability from COBIS and CIS - they should be driving standards and education policy internationally. They should be demanding more riogour from schools and they should be a kite mark of excellence- sadly, they are just a
    Smoking Room full of dusty old white males, most of whom need putting out to pasture.
  5. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    Unfortunately PGCEi are having a negative impact on the financial package offered too professional teachers on the international circuit.

    Once a large number of unqualified PGCEi teachers are employed pay and conditions will plummet. Its called supply and demand and school owners desperately want to buy the new Bentley.

    There is a vast difference between the old GTP and the new PGCEi, the award of QTS being a big hint.
    yasf likes this.
  6. BlueHues

    BlueHues New commenter

    But until QTS is demanded by international schools and / or associations start to actually demand international schools have a proper, abided by code of conduct- there will always be rogues.

    Teachers such as my partner should not be penalised when they are good at their job and have a proven & ongoing track record in being brilliant practitioners.

    Just because you have QTS or a PGCE, there is no guarantee you are good teacher. It just means you survived the gauntlet of training and year 1 in teaching.

    I’ve seen Teach First / PHD teachers who are absolutely abysmal in the classroom and 2:2 geography teachers knock it out of the park with A Level results (as we all have no doubt!).

    We need more accountability in international teaching so that the good, bad and the ugly are easily identified. COBIS, CIS and all the others should do more to play their part as I ranted earlier!
  7. taiyah

    taiyah Occasional commenter

    @BlueHues you're a good husband for sticking up for your wife.. In reality..

    Good unqualified teacher vs Good qualified teacher...??

    As a parent.... which option do you think they would take in exchange for the £10,000 - 25,000 a year fees???

    I'm with Febbers on this one, always have. As @Tararose212 have clearly put it and unfortunately found out. PGCEi holders can't even get on the casual/substitute list in their own country...

    Can't...can't get on a substitute/casual list in a country that continue to have an exodus of qualified teachers either quitting or heading overseas... Enough said....
  8. BlueHues

    BlueHues New commenter

    Actually I think she’s a good ‘un for sticking with me @taiyah but aside from all that jazz. She worked hard to get her qualification and has had some exceptional HODS moving her forward. I also would like to point out that in the U.K she would be able to do the AO route to gain QTS as we have explored going home- and there are roles for cover supervision (subs whatever else they’re called) that are unqualified.

    International schools need to up their game as do accreditation / membership clubs.
  9. february31st

    february31st Established commenter

    Obtaining QTS by the AO route while in the UK is a perfectly legitimate way of securing QTS.

    But I am still waiting for a teacher with a PGCEi to stand up in front of a classroom of international parents and explain that they not qualified to teach in the United Kingdom and that their qualification allows them to educate their children. Still waiting for someone currently teaching with a PGCEi to inform me that they have done this.

    Since international schools pay for the continuation of bodies like BSME, COBIS and IB with membership fees they will always be Rubber Stamps at best for regulations of teaching standards.
  10. taiyah

    taiyah Occasional commenter

    @BlueHues everyone works hard to get their qualifications. Except most people do real courses, can go home and land a job as a qualified teacher. That's what?? A £3k - £7k to £10k difference in salary. Depending on experience... That's a huge difference. Your wife may have worked under good Heads of whatever overseas but still lack qualifications.

    @february31st I'm also waiting for those PGCEi teachers. I can already hear the parents walking towards the finance office.
  11. HeroForTheDay

    HeroForTheDay New commenter

    As a PGCEi teacher I feel I have to defend BlueHues here... After getting a student who managed Top In the World for my subject at IGCSE this year, and 3 students who were top in country the past 5 years, the PGCEi doesn't determine your ability to teach, only your piece of paper. This notion of "getting infront of parents and telling them you're not qualified" is nonsense because the teaching requirements in my country allow me to teach in country and I've had success teaching my subject regardless of whether I'm UK qualified or not. And I have parents encouraging students to take my course because they know I guarantee results. Do they care about my PGCEi or my results?

    So the main question is...am I bad teacher because I didn't go through the PGCE route and get QTS? obviously not. Do I defend the PGCEi to people when questioned? no. But good teachers are good teachers and awful teachers are awful teachers regardless of the qualification they hold. This argument has been done to death already
    Tararose212 likes this.
  12. nemo.

    nemo. Occasional commenter

    Although there are awful qualified surgeons, generally speaking if I am having heart surgery I prefer a qualified heart surgeon. Not a gifted amateur with a hacksaw!

    I do understand the overseas dilemma of someone interested in teaching. I was teaching EFL, but decided 9 months in the UK was worth it for a PGCE and QTS. I eventually stayed longer for the induction year and another to get better overseas jobs.

    Observing teachers taught me one thing. An unqualified teacher (even with a PGCE but no QTS) is obvious, even if gifted that would have benefited from proper training that working in the state system provides. They certainly would earn more. There are poor qualified teachers as in any profession, but most are at least decent.
  13. Tararose212

    Tararose212 New commenter

    I think this talk of I’m a good teacher i deserve this or these jobs/income is naive, there is far to much competition to believe you deserve anything no matter how good/experienced or qualified. Understand, that some of us unfortunate lol pgcei people paid upwards of £7k studying for one year whilst working- with no time for revision during school like you have on a normal pgce. It was a very stressful year with big bills to pay every month and upward of 15 hours study time a week. What I’m saying is, and it hurts to me say this but its a scam. Pure and simple.

    I was told to do the course by my principal, course told me i could do QTS when i returned home lots of other teachers done it, seemed like a safe bet... there was no evidence saying otherwise which is why I’m saying- I’m the evidence don’t do it!

    I have applied for pgce with Qts starting September I’ve got really good offers and such excellent feedback from interviews i was actually quite shocked how well i was received. Although I am getting disheartened with the what feels continuous jumping of stacks or so it feels maybe i should just give up, a year studying and even more student fees. Then my teaching education alone cost me nearly £20k. If you were me would you do it?

    @nemo i wouldnt be so sure there about pgcei teachers being obvious- weak teachers are obvious everywhere. Ive seen plenty teachers in the UK that lack in many many ways- tbh i seen more average to weak teachers than half decent. Whereas, in international schools everyone is fantastic. This is not a TEFL qual pgcei is a teaching cert all the same theory etc as norm ones. I was observed always outstanding, in fact I received months and months of training, 1:1 and lesson observations. I have a first in my degree and always done lots of CPD and education conferences internationally- only because I really love my job. I had access to many people, experiences and resources much more than if i stayed at home. UK schools LOVE international experience and it will always help me stand out miles beyond standard teachers.

    I think UK university’s that are renting their name and reputation to these providers need to be seriously investigated- get panorama on that! I’m going to try and get my money back I’m happy to even forfeit the useless certificate in order to fund a normal pgce.

    I’m glad to have to forum as I spent months emailing all the NI and UK education authorities researching this to have this answer, also i heard about the AO route. Yes this gives QTS, although teachers can get a QTS in the UK with no PGCE whatsoever and school experience. Strange but i know someone who has done this. There are so many options its crazy.
  14. Tararose212

    Tararose212 New commenter

    Also when i done this course there were hundreds one the course from what I remember a min of 300 people MIN (seen when i was set up and logged on fees paid)- £7kx300= 2.1million£

    This is a massive money making scheme.

    The average uni has between 5-20 students. 9kx20 as an average is 180k in total return and also tuition fees in the UK are now free with the bursery of 9k if you have a 1st or 2.1
  15. clovispoint

    clovispoint Occasional commenter

    I have seen some of the teachers qualifying from the iPGCE course- they passed despite poor classroom management, English, subject knowledge and more- just awful. They would not have lasted on a PGCE course in the UK. We have had excellent people doing the iPGCE, professionals switching careers but unable to take a year (or three) out to qualify in the UK. They will go on to make excellent teachers. The problem for excellent teachers with iPGCE is that the qualification is tainted by those who gain the qualification despite their obvious poor performance.
    HeroForTheDay likes this.
  16. BlueHues

    BlueHues New commenter

    Thanks for coming to my side @HeroForTheDay.

    I think @clovispoint sums up why it has a poor reputation - those who obtain it by poor performance. More scrutiny is definitely needed.
  17. yasf

    yasf Established commenter

    What's the PGCSEi ?
    I don't know the PGGE either
    3rd time lucky?
    Yes indeed.
    That may say as much about the students as it does about the teacher. I know we all judge ourselves against exam results, but I am of the old fashioned view that it's the student that gets the result, not the teacher.
    galloisedog likes this.
  18. BlueHues

    BlueHues New commenter

    Thanks @yasf and I’ve got QTS.... typos and iPhones
    yasf likes this.
  19. HeroForTheDay

    HeroForTheDay New commenter

    @yasf I too am of the opinion it is the student who got the award and not I. However, I only mentioned the achievement since I wished to offer proof of my argument that PCCEi teachers are successful and can teach - because ultimately that is what the argument (on this forum) boils down to...PGCEi teachers being "unqualified in the UK" and "not good enough" when compared to those who studied the pgce in the UK... or febs argument that we have to proclaim our inability to teach I the UK or we are somehow fraudulent. Good teachers prove themselves as good teachers regardless of the piece of paper they hold. The opposite is also true

    Although I have to ask what other objective standard can teachers measure their ability other than by exam results?
  20. clovispoint

    clovispoint Occasional commenter

    I work for a group of schools. One school in particular gets outstanding results, the rest of the schools also get extremely good results but are always pipped by this one school. It is not down to the teachers (as they are excellent across the board) but largely down to factors like student intake (ethnicity and family culture), ethos, pastoral care, systems in place to help students do their best etc. Good teachers do well in good environments, they do even better when the students reach their potential.

    Judging teachers is always subjective as a hard fact like an exam result does not take context into account.
    makhnovite and yasf like this.

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