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Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by versingetorix, Sep 17, 2009.
As if on cue. LOL. You're becoming a parody of yourself.
Not at all. As I have successfully pointed out many times before, I only attack when attacked. I give as good as I get, and more.
If you actually spent time debating the very worthwhile points I do make instead of merely calling me a nasty man time and time again, we might actually begin to have an intelligent discussion. Try it - many do, and appreciate the dialogue they have with me, as I do with them.
No Ray, you give then can't take it when you get teh same back. Slightly different, as I'm sure you'll (dis)agree.
I do with other. I just find it's pretty much pointless with you.
Then stop treating people like **** on your shoes. You may well feel that you are superior to everyone else on this forum, but you are not - you are a rude, arrogant man who thinks that calling people idiots equates to "winning" an arguement. I've told you this before and will continue to tell you until I get bored and use the report button. In this day and age, forum bullying is not tolerated. Conduct yourself in a manner appropriate to your status for heaven's sake and grow up.
Obviously this must be in another forum, as I've never seen a discussion here where people appreciate being abused.
No, Ray, wrong yet again.
I was challenged. That is different from challenging someone.
This high-mindedness from someone who doesn't see the irony, the hypocrisy in their own words (just in case, I mean the "idiot" versus the"debate properly" comments).
You have few social skills, Ray. I've been saying you are a pompous fool for a few years now, and you continue to exhibit that pomposity in the vast majority of your postings.
***. You started Post 87 of this thread with "Didactatube strikes again." You hadn't been attacked, or referred to: you launched straight into an attack on me - it seems to be something of a fetish that you cannot resist indulging in. Well, whatever gets you through the day...
Yes, really. 60,000 out of 5 million is far removed from the normal experience. BTW even this figure is highly optimistic. 58,650 Gaelic speakers in the last Census includes an unknown number who will only have a passing familiarity with the language and those who live outside of Gaelic speaking areas who never actually use the language. To suggest that they are ALL speaking English as a second language is, I am afraid, nonsense. Please don't think I am unsympathetic to Gaelic - I am by no means hostile to it but just don't see any reason for optimism about its future.
'Beaten out of them'????? You are talking about the experience of a century or more ago. They're deid. Sorry. Minorities do count, but not the dead community. I am unashamedly necrophobic.
Gaelic-medium education is indeed growing. However, this does not help Gaelic to survive as a spoken language. For that to happen, it has to be useful in people's everyday lives, which it isn't. The advent of cinema and television brought about the global communication which has destroyed the usefulness of hundreds of languages worldwide, including Gaelic. The internet is accelerating that experience. Where is the message board for Gaelic teachers? Exactly.
I have already stated that I accept the argument about attainment. However, immersion in German or Spanish or even Cantonese would be infinitely more useful for the children's future lives in the world of the 21st Century.
Understanding of Scotland and her culture? Hardly. As soon as Malcolm III married an English queen 1000 years ago, it was the beginning of the end for Gaelic. For centuries, the separation of Highland and Lowland meant the impoverishment of the majority of Highlanders living in dire poverty in a Third World subsistence economy, as I posted earlier.
My ancestors who were evicted by the Duke of Atholl at the end of the 18th Century experienced poverty for several generations as they eked out a living in the slums of the Industrial Revolution in Lowland Scotland. However, the development of this capitalist economy allowed them eventually to break out of poverty. Had the Highland Clearances never happened, Scotland would now be a much poorer place. Alba and Albania would not just be next to each other in the dictionary. Another ancestor (gg grandfather) who moved from much farther north gave his descendants opportunities they would never have had on the far north east coast. Gaelic is finished. Highland culture as it was is finished. Scotland's economy is in a dire state and the last thing we need is anything that separates us from the rest of the UK, far less separating us from the rest of the world.
Justifying Gaelic education in terms of CfE is merely evidence that CfE is a shambles and a complete waste of time and money.
Raymagnol you say 'i'd thought i'd thrown you int he bin with this one' but if you loook back i think you'll find that you had no comeback for what i wrote to you, you made widely over exaggarated claims and i told you, you were wrong/out of line. I stand by my point of if you feel you can't answer you just let the thread get a few pages longer then come back and attack someone else.
Secondly, i never 'attacked' you, i merely (politely) put my point across (not even to you....just in the forum in general) and you came back with a load of abuse.
Surely someone that is meant to be as intelligent as you would know that the minute you start being abuse and rude you are defeating yourself. If you really made intellectual and sensible points you would need to be so aggressive..your words would speak for themselves, the mere fact you have to bully people to (try) and get them to listen to you, shows you don't have anything of worth to say. The people on here that are pro Gaelic and have put their opinions across politely and calmly have had real affect, i have listened and understood their point of view..you only damage their case.
Having been a national competition debating winner i know for a fact that you would have beendisqualifed pretty damn fast...you need to listen, have respect and then give your opinion. once again, raymagnol....he who shouts loudest isn't the most repected/correct/intelligent..infact quite the opposite.
Please feel free to try and answer in a polite fashion...liek everyone else on here trying to make an intelligent point.
Maybe so, Ray, but you must admit weestar has a valid point with that particular statement.
I make no comment, other than to say it's more likely that weestar was a national debating competition winner...
My only comment is that it's more than likely Ray is . . .
If the only comeback the Ray has is to pick at my bad typing skills then i feel i have made my point. It infurates me when the only comeback is to have a go at the way someone types. I had two minutes of my break left, forgive me if my typing and thoughts got a bit jumbled! As per usual all Ray has to say for himself is well...nothing...just having a dig at someone else....how original Ray....how original
or bad grammar, for that matter...
Here we go again.
Who said that there was anything "wrong" in keeping a language alive "artificially"? The fact that these efforts "have" to be made is an accurate indication of the state of the language (and that state is "dying"). That is the point I make.
Human beings? Art? Endangered species? Hardly relevant analogies.
There is no irony in endangered species teetering on the brink of extinction due to human interference. Why? Because that is natural.
There is irony in using that analogy without realising that Gaelic is teetering on the brink of extinction due to human interference. Why? Because that is natural.
In this case English is the big American grey squirrel and Gaelic is the wee native red squirrel, and natural selection does the rest.
Now, I couldn't care less if Gaelic dies, survives, thrives or whatever, so, to me, your a), b) and c) are irrelevant.
Shona, pet, no. You're just wrong. In the earlier post, you claimed that people stopped speaking Gaelic because it was 'beaten out of them'. You have now moderated that claim, but I think it is still a wild exaggeration. Did people give up speaking Gaelic in all situations just because it was banned in school?
"only some 60k can speak Gaelic but 100k have some understanding" - just as thousands of people have some understanding of Latin without finding it useful as a spoken language. If a language is not spoken, it dies.
"There's probably a lot more whose parents and grandparents did speak but didn't pass it on" - so they themselves are NOT Gaelic speakers. If they found it useful, they would learn it. But they don't bother. Sorry.
"Add to that the many incomers who have brought other languages to Scotland" - what about them? The language of this country is ENGLISH and everyone in this country should speak it.
"Let's hope it flourishes now most of us have got over the predjudice and ignorance of the past." - By all means, hope so. I couldn't care less, but I don't want a penny of my taxes being spent supporting it.
"but I don't want a penny of my taxes being spent supporting it."
And, dic, that is your right to harbour that opinion.
Lest we forget, this is an opinion forum.
......and everyone in question in this argument (ie Gaelic speakers) CAN speak it - it's just not their first language. That's one of the points being made, that those being taught in Gaelic are equally adept at English and generally speaking 'more adept' academically. In fact I think that a good argument could be made that "the language of this country is ENGLISH" is one reason why low literacy levels exist. In many parts of the country, children are being taught/expected to learn a text book version of English that bears little or no resemblence to the dialects they speak/hear outside of school. One positive thing that can be said for CfE in my area is the increase in Doric content in the curriculum & the way in which children are responding to this.
And all this from an Aussie..........
Maybe not, but the plain truth is that you don't have too much of a say in how your taxes are spent, and, like the rest of us, you just have to lump it.
I too have a long list of things I'd rather not subsidise through my taxes - and I'm happy to say that helping preserve this country's culture this way is not on it. There are plenty of other areas where money is being wasted, and in far greater quantities.
Where's my nearest Gaelic, Scots, Doric classes...?
I speak ENGLISH but I want to broaden my horizons, expand my ability to empathise with and understand other humans and their traditions - "beyond the pale".
Is that something to do with my being human?
Thanks didact for reawakening my broader interests. At least your sweeping generalisation has had an effect.
It seems to me that the "pro-Gaelic" posters (for want of a more accurate description) have much in common with former President George W Bush.
Remember, wrt terror, George stated that "if you're not with us, you're against us". Too many posters have assumed that position wrt Gaelic. Aggressively.
You've stated that you are utterly indifferent to what happens to Gaelic, bj. That may not be an "anti" in your book, but it's certainly not a "pro" in ours.