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gaelic education

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by versingetorix, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. Oh the irony...i wrote here instead of hearing in the third last line of my last message. Really should proof read and not write at hundred miles per hour and then just submit. Thought i should point this out before someone jumped down my throat about it.
  2. Actually, weestar, I often feel you shouldn't start typing at all, let alone proof read after you've finished.
    So learn it - just because you're too lazy, don't then say, "Oh well, let it die out". What about the poeple who aren't too lazy and DO learn it?
    First, is Gaelic pointless to the people who speak it and use it to communicate with each other using it?
    Secondly, what about the large Gaelic contingent in Canada? I take it you're ignorant of their existence and history? Surprising, that...
    Thirdly, should people learn ancient Egyptian or Aramaic? These are dead language - what knowledge would the world have been denied if no-one learned them?
    Fourthly, who on earth said that the whole of Scotland should adopt Gaelic? Arrant nonsense, and fairly typical of your Chicken Little approach to responding to sensible threads.
    You don't want it to die out, but unless it's taught in EVERY school it shouldn't be funded? Mmmm... so EVERY school has to offer the same curriculum, do they? No more minority languages. No more Russian. No more Philosophy. No more... oh, hell, why n=bother pointing out what a silly argument this is.
    So you're proud of being Scottish - but are prepared to see a vital part of its history and culture die out for the price of an interactive whiteboard? No wonder you then degenerate into arrant senselessness.
    Tell me weestar - do you have any consistent and logical beliefs?


  3. Lazyness is not the only reason for not learning a language. There are hundreds of languages all around the world. Some are useful (possibly for work or holiday) some are personally (note - personally) useless. Why do you feel the meed to call someone lazy just because they don't feel that they need to learn a language? Are you lazy just because you have not learned how to speak Welsh? Are you lazy just because you have not learned how to argue or discuss without resorting to ad hominem attacks?
  4. You just love jumping on any criticism I make of anyone, don't you mathsguy? It's a bit comforting knowing that you will always try to find excuses for having a pop at me, even when I am in the right.
    Weestar starts off post 59 with "Can't believ i've just wasted so much time reading all the posts on this topic" - I notice you don't launch an "ad hominen attack" on him/her for calling the opinions of others a "waste of time".
    Neither do you call time on the outrageousness of "the Gaelic language really is pointless to an extent" - is that not an "ad hominem" attack on the language of Gaels? How do you think they feel about that?
    Weestar also says "Gaelic speakers are only in Scotland and even then they are limited" - apart from the fact that the statement is wrong, does weestar mean that Gaels are "limited"? Intellectually or numerically?
    And what about "I#m sick of here 'you's' in sentences and people not knowing the difference between adverbs, nouns and adjectives etc.....and i'm talking about the teachers here" - quite apart from the irony of such a lazily typed post being almost senseless in itself, where is your fury at weestar's blatant stereotyping of teachers as grammatically challenged?
    You really are quite tiresome, mathsguy. Your self-righteous anger is only reserved for those you see as rightful targets - while you let others off with some quite outrageous statements.
  5. By the way, mathsguy, my reply to weestar contains a number of very pertinent points which add to the debate - try dealing with them, instead of accusing me of never making any points.
  6. It may be worth remembering that the study of two dead classical languages were at the heart of the educated person's curriculum for some five centuries after they had ceased to be used as a living medium of communication. The reason was, of course, that a knowledge of the classics marked you out as a person in tune with the civilisations which undrepinned much of our culture.
    Consider Gaelic. Not only is it a part of Scotland's civilisation and culture, it is still a living medium.
  7. Thanks Mathsguy for your response, unfortunately with Raymagnol you may as well be talking to a brick wall because he never believes himself to be wrong.

    To go with what Mathsguy said..i am infact not lazy...well unless you call someone with 3 degrees and is working towards their second teaching qualification as well as holding down a full time job, running a house and pursing a range of personal hobbies in my (infrequent) spare time, lazy.So no Raymagnol i am indeed NOT lazy, i strive to keep learning and work extremely hard and therefore unless Gaelic looks like it would play a significant or relevant place in my future i shall not be learning it anytime soon.

    Obviously, Gaelic is has a point to those that speak it to each other, but it does not have a worldwide point. If people are to spend their tax money funding a language in schools i believe it should be a langauge that will help those that learn it be able to communicate with a large a number of people as possible. I would wnat my children to learn a language that they could use in various places around the world or even have a fighting chance of them using it once in their careers, Having family and various friends in Canada I have never once heard them speak of Gaelic speakers. I have absoultely no doubt they are there but i think scotland's future generations deserve to learn a language that they can use abroad and with many businesses, esp those that cannot speak english, not just wioth other Scots who will all be fluent in English anyway and a few Canadians....tho if my child one day is in business with a Gaelic Canadian then 'hooray'.
    So yes you can call me ignorrant of Gaelic Canadians exsistance however, i fear i am not alone in that, and quite frankly i'm not really bothered about not knowing of these people, there are far far worse things to be ignorrant of.
    I think it is important people learn dead or dying languages..perhaps not though at the expense of other essental things in education. ANd yes i think having History teachers and infact any teachers to stop depts being run to the bone is money better spent. I'm not saying all schools shoudl have the same curriculum, but if Gaelic supporters really want Scotland to revive Gaelic then yes i think it should be taught in them all rather than spending thousands funding a few. Though really it still woudl be a waste of time to me.....Gaelic has only ever been spoken in a few areas of Scotland yet Gaelic supporters make out like everyone used ot speak it and it is really important we all do again. Not the case. If we are to make Gaelic relevant to the 21st world though maybe we shoudl stop training a few and train the masses and give it a relevance other than for those that want to watch BBC Alba....or have dinner parties with their Gaelic friends.

    Tell me raymagnol, is anyone allowed to have a opinion that differs to you? Also, why does anyone who disagrees with you having to be called 'stupid' etc? Why is your word always got to be right? It is a poor man who can only make his point heard but shouting others down and calling them names. Perhaps your username should be Idi Amin.

  8. True, Gaelic is far from a dead language. It may have huge historical significance, as in place and personal names, music and culture but it's still a living language. In many parts of the Highlands and Islands it is still spoken in home and work. It's used in national media. Music from folk to punk is composed in it. Books are written in it. And thousands are education in it.
    Time for MORE funding and education, not less.
  9. er, educated in it. Bhiodh a' Ghàidhlig na b'fhasa!
    Oidhche mhath!
  10. I said i felt i had wasted my time because it was a debate of hearts not minds.

    I believe Gaelic to be 'pointless' to an extent' for our furture generations. I am all for people learning Gaelic, in fact I would encourage people to learn it if they felt it would give them a better understanding of our country's history however, i believe money could be better spent equip our children for the global world of work.

    To have a go at my spelling...well we really are clutching at straws/coming across as a small man now aren't we? I never once said 'all' of Scotland's teachers but there definately are a few out there, teacing in Scotland's primaries and secondarys, that would struggle to use an adverb correctly...and well if the teacher can't do it, what chance do the pupils have?
  11. No. I get uspet that someone who is supposedly educated cannot post a reply to a forum without resorting to personal ad-hominem attacks. Attack thepoints not the poster. The reason I pick on whay you say is so you can feel it from the other side. You don't like it, so why do you think others here do?
    He attacked the posts, not the posters. Not an ad-hominem in sight. Please try to keep up.

    It's not an ad-hominem attack. That is an opinion on the usefuleness of a language. Please try to keep up.

    I have no idea what he means, but I seriously doubt he would be trying ot imply they were somehow educationally challenged because of that, no matter how much delight you would take from it.

  12. Good God, weestar, you ask if I believe others are allowed to have opinions - well let's look at some of yours, right from your own mouth.
    So ANYTHING that isn't relevant or significant for you is worthless?
    Do Gaels not pay taxes? Do you believe them to be blood-sucking leeches taking your hard earned taxes for their insignificant and irrelevant language?
    And I take it you don't believe in funding Latin or Greek (excellent post grunwald) - or Russian, or Italian, or Polish, or even French. Let's all learn ONLY English and Chinese, shall we?
    So they're irrelevant because your family has never come across them?
    Well, obviously they are irrelevant, since you're not really bothered about knowing of these people. And you the good Christian too.
    Eh? So "funding a few" is wrong, but funding ALL is okay? As I asked, do you have a logical thought?
    So that makes it a waste of time to everyone, it seems...
    Let's get one thing straight, weestar. It is YOU who doesn't see the relevance of the existence of people and their language and culture. What annoys me SO much about you is that you are illogical, practically illiterate, senseless and - right down at the core - basically thoughtless, all wrapped up in a holier-than-thou Christian ethic which defies belief. I am quite happy to debate issues - as I have done in this thread - but when a f**kwit like you comes on and says that every one's sensible opinions are a "waste of your time" and you then proceed to witter absolutely nonsensically, then I'm afraid my patience ends.

    In your disrespect for whole populations of people (you don't care about the EXISTENCE of Canadian Gaels?!), your inability to string a sentence together and your almost maniacal belief that whatever nonsense comes out of your mouth before the thought has fully formed must be correct, I'm afraid that YOU are the living epitome of everything that Idi Amin was...
  13. I have no idea what he means, but I seriously doubt he would be trying ot imply they were somehow educationally challenged because of that, no matter how much delight you would take from it.

    When Raynagnol wrote the above i chose to ignore it because it was just him being ridiculous. It was merely a remark that he added to provoke a response. Taking the normal, and most obvious interpretation of the word, i meant it to mean 'limited in numbers', for anyone wondering. As a past post wrote, 'only 2% of Scotland' can speak Gaelic fluently....therefore i meant if Gaelic is to be supported perhaps it really should be across all of Scotland's schools....and you know what Raymagnol, if that is at the expense of Russian or Polish,so what?! As people keep saying if Scotland doesn't take responsiblity for the Gaelic langauge, who will? Until it is fully established and used by the majority maybe we should put our own culture ahead of others and really mean it when it is said that Gaelic should be kept alive. I believe if you're going to do a job you should do it whole heartedly. Let Russian worry about Russian and Poland worry about Polish and Scotland worry about Gaelic then. If a teacher can speak Russian etc then great, then can teach that too....but if you really want Gaelic kept alive/revived then should you not support it being taught to all of Scotland's future?
  14. This is getting worse...
  15. I apologise. This particlar poster's views offend me, and I know that is the wrong reaction to display on a public thread...
  16. Bloody hell Rayngamol you need to calm down.
    I never once said that anything that wasn't relevant to my furture was 'Worthless' i merely said that i didn't have time (literally) to pursue things (such as learing Gaelic) if it wouldn't benefit my life or career in the foreseeable future. I, like i'm sure many others would, would love to spend my time learning many languages, cultures, sciences etc...but you knwo God only gave us 24hours in one day so you got to fill them with things that you need or are releveant to you.

    I never once said Gaels were 'blood sucking leeches' (when any of my pupisl do this sort of thing, i usually give them the speech of 'now did they really say that..or are you starting to embelish this story?) I merely, believe (and yes Raymagnol i am allowed to have my opinion on how my money is spent) there are more important things in Scotland's schools that need funded at present...like actually having history departments to teach scottish history

    I never said that Gaelic Canadians were 'irrelevant' i merely said i had not heard of them and that i couldn't get upset about the fact that i hadn't, and i'm preety confident that many people out there wouldn't know that there were Gaelic speakers in canada either. I'm sure they are lovely people....i can't believ you were actually tryiong to make points out of these things.

    And so to conclude this post...i am neither for nor against Gaelic in Scotland's at present...but i feel if Scotland really wants it to be part of our culture then we should wholeheartedly support it and get all of Scotland's young speaking it rather than just a few. I enjoy seeing Gaelic speaking schools but i feel frustrated because i know that the majority of pupils from them will probably go on to careers in Scotland where they will not be able to use their Gaelic tongue. It is greta they will use it at home, but if we are to spend thousands of pounds wouldn't it be great oif it could become a real part of Scotland's culture and not just a language spoke in certain areas?

    Oh and to cal me a 'f**wit' etc....you really are showing yourself to be a certain sort of person. As i say, i don't know any great leader/man/woman that has empowered or brought about good by being obnoxious and rude. YOu can make a point without being unpleasant.
  17. It was really, really funny though. I had to clean my monitor after reading it.
    Ray, you have some strong views and are very passionate about them, and I do pick you up when you make personal comments, but I know you are far more intelligent than to let the red mist guide your words in a forum.
    For what it's worth, as far as this thread goes, I actually agree with you and think that Gaelic is too much a part of our history to watch it disappear (I'm actually beginning a conversational Gaelic course tomorrow). I also agree with the comments I've seen you post about CFE. But I find it difficult to align myself with you on the forum simply because of the way you go about sharing your views.I think that is partly why I make such a deal out of it.

  18. I would applaud anyone who attempts to learn Gaelic, especially past puberty - when the neurons start to die off, according to Chomsky!
    I'm am still attempting to reach fluency in one Euro language which i started years ago and am attempting to get by in 2 others. After a day at work, i quite often don't feel like learning another language so i can identify with those who may support Gaelic but don't have the time or energy to actually learn it.
    As to Gaelic, having learned it when younger, it certainly IS more useful to me than, say Spanish which i do use on occasion. It has opened a whole part of my history and everyday environment to me which would have stayed hidden had i no Gaelic. Not only that, but I use it at work and in leisure on a daily basis - like TENS of thousands of others. It is by no means dead and indeed shows signs of developing. Long may it continue.
    Scots kids should have the benefits of Gaelic too wherever possible, plus, as kids, it will make their acquisition of another more universal language easier and will give them greater command of our majority language English. (Evidence: Chomsky, Baker, Johnstone, Sorace et al) It is superb value for taxpayer's money!
  19. I've been following this thread quietly, getting more and more infuriated by the insistent self-justificatory posturing of some of the posters.
    Multilingualism is beneficial beyond the benefits of the mere language acquisition; that the language being discussed is an integral part of our national culture is an extra extra bonus. Nothing to lose, lots to gain. It's a no-brainer: promote Ghàidhlig education and education through Ghàidhlig.
  20. Interestingly, some more evidence from the BBC today on the superior attainment of Gaelic pupils in the Highlands:
    Pupils learning Gaelic "match and better" their peers in other subjects, Highland Council has said.
    It said figures compiled from SQA exam results showed more credit level awards were attained in the language than for English.
    The council said youngsters taking Gaelic medium education also performed well at maths.

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