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Future of Post Compulsory PGCE Mathematics in State Secondary schools and in FE collges

Discussion in 'Mathematics' started by nomita, May 14, 2011.

  1. Hi there
    I was offered Post compulsory PGCE Maths in Sept 2011 course but as I know this doesn't give QTS status to teach secondary. I was just concerned what my future will be as a Maths teacher with this course. Should I feel lucky? As I have very limited knowledge in terms of job opportunities available after doing this course(Or you will be unemployed). If Anyone of you could help me with this.
    Will there be any chance after doing this course that I would ever be able to teach state secondary schools (Keystage 3,4,5)and enhance my experience? If yes Will teachers with QTS via GTP or PGCE will get preference when I look for jobs? Can any headteachers/recruiters in secondary schools advice on this please?
    What sort of salaries do you get if you at all get employed in FE colleges ? Where can you teach (only in FE collges or in state dependenr schools? Is finding job difficult in FE ?
    Can I defer this PGCE offer for next year and still explore the PGCE options for teaching in secondary schools and accept it when I get?
    What sort of bursary you are looking to get when do this course?
    Since I don't know anyone in this field I will be looking forward to your help and advice.
    Many thanks
    Best regards
  2. Your best bet is to ask the people made the offer to you (ie the university or whatever) and/or the TDA.
    Good luck.
  3. alabaster

    alabaster New commenter

    I don't think you can be employed as a teacher at a state maintained secondary school without QTS. I believe you can teach at independent schools and possibly academies without QTS.
    There may still be time to get on a PGCE that includes QTS for this September - if I were you I would contact the universities/PGCE providers you are interested in directly. When I did my PGCE a few years ago I contacted them first by email then applied - they still had places when I went for an interview in July. I don't know whether there are still as many places, and there are possibly more applicants now than 5 years ago.
    Good luck
  4. DM

    DM New commenter

    Keep up everyone!
    QTS is no longer required if the teacher has QTLS from the FE sector.
    At the beginning of April, Michael Gove announced that "qualified further education lecturers are entitled to teach in school classrooms on the same basis as qualified school teachers with immediate effect".

  5. alabaster

    alabaster New commenter

    have to admit I missed that one!
  6. Nicely gets round the problem of teaching vocational post 14 in colleges! Does that work the other way round in that QTS will sustitute for QTLS for FE? Presumably someone gaining QTLS will still need to do induction to teach in a school.
  7. Many thanks for all your replies
    Now I have three questions
    1.Is this a law what MIchael Gove stated ? If not Does that make a difference?
    At the beginning of April, Michael Gove announced that "qualified further education lecturers are entitled to teach in school classrooms on the same basis as qualified school teachers with immediate effect".
    Can she/he teach all keysatges 3,4 and 5?
    2. Even if it is law Will teacher with QLTS have same chances of getting an employment in state secondary schools as teacher having QTS via GTP or PGCE?
    3.Presumably someone gaining QTLS will still need to do induction to teach in a school.
    What do you mean by that? How can you possibly arrange that? You can't do another PGCE to get that? Then what are hers/his options to get that? Is GTP an option to attain QTS to teach secondary ? Can you possibly get around it?
    Many thanks
    Best regards
  8. 1. Michael Gove can do whatever he chuffing well likes as Education Secretary and if he says you can then you can.
    2. I very much doubt that it would restrict you to a particular key stage as it would be too difficult to manage and wouldn't work.
    3. There is some commonality between the standards for QTS and QTLS so they would only need to tweak induction standards for QTLS.
    I would still opt to go QTS though if you wanted to teach mainly in a school as some will be wary of QTLS methinks.
  9. DM

    DM New commenter

    Not my area of expertise but I am sure Induction will not be required as the FE lecturers went through Professional Formation. You always were able to use QTS as an alternative for QTLS, you just have to do some paperwork to satisfy IfL.
  10. DM

    DM New commenter

    I would too but not for that reason.
  11. I would too but not for that reason.
    If may I ask for what reason!!!!
    Thanks for all your comments. I still have few questions
    1.What if you don't have an option to get QTS via GTP or PGCE?(and you want to teach state secondary) and you don't have a choice? Then would you do this PC-PGCE qualfication instead and think that you will sometime have a chance to teach state secondary schools??
    2. Will teacher having QTS be preferred to teach in state secondary inspite of Michael Gove's statement?
    3. Is there an option to get QTS after QLTS say via GTP?
    Many thanks
  12. DM

    DM New commenter

    If you ultimately want to teach in a school, it would make sense for you to train in a school.
    1. Why wouldn't you "have an option"? There are unfilled places on several PGCE mathematics courses.
    2. Not necessarily. Relevant experience would be a consideration though.
    3. No.
  13. Hmmm . . . Here's what James Williams the NQT expert here said about QTLS and induction:
    "It is possible (with agreement from the FE college and the local authority) to complete induction where you are, but if the college won't do it then you are, I'm afraid out of luck. Remember that the FE college must ensure that your 'workload conditions' are the same as a NQT in a school, that is max 90% timetable - there is also the requirements for teaching school-age children i.e. under 16. (see the statutory guidance section 2.8 for all the relevant details).
    So the current position is that you would have to complete induction if you move to a state school from FE if you did not complete induction in the FE college. Whether or not there will be any form of exemption from induction if the QTLS and QTS recommendation comes to pass who knows".
    Now as far as I know there is no induction required for FE teaching, so those hoping to make a smooth transition from FE to school teaching may not be able to. Quite honestly, I think they should do some form of induction. Just because you can successfully teach adults doesn't mean you can necessarily successfully teach children. I have done both and it's a different beast.
  14. DM can you point me to the info that says that you cannot gain QTS after gaining QTLS please? I am surprised at this as the training is for different teaching environments.
  15. DM

    DM New commenter

    Bit busy FF, research it yourself it you wish but there would simply be no point in obtaining QTS after QTLS now that they are equivalent qualifications - no training provider would accept you.
    FE teachers do undergo induction, it just has a different name (professional formation).
    Gove has quietly backtracked on the "with immediate effect" thing he announced to the press in March though. From the Government response to Wolf published this week:
    "We believe that schools should be free to appoint the right teachers to deliver the appropriate curriculum for their pupils. For too long highly experienced Qualified Teacher, Learning and Skills (QTLS) holders have been unable to teach the subjects in schools that they already teach in further education colleges. This means that head teachers and governing bodies have not always been able to appoint the right teachers for the delivery of high quality education across the full range of subjects taught in schools. That is why we are giving schools the freedom to select the teachers with the skills and experience that they require.
    Recognising QTLS status in schools will require a change in the law. A statement will be made this summer explaining how and when the changes will apply. Subject to statutory and parliamentary procedure, we intend to implement this recommendation as soon as possible."
  16. Why not? Each qualification is for a different sector of teaching. All Gove is offering is the concession that each qualification can be used in the alternate sector. If the two are equivalent then their would be no need for both qualifications.

    Yes FE teachers do professional formation, but that is to gain QTLS and is rather akin to doing the GTP within a school. I don't know how you could compare that with induction, which is post-qualification.

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