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er and ur advice please

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by minilady, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. hi am nearly at the end of phase 3 and planning for next week. have looked at the sounds yet to cover and wondered if 'er' and 'ur' are alternative spellings or are they different sounds. (i apologise for my ignorance but want to be certain myself before Monday)
    obviously er is often at the end of a word eg dinner, ladder
    how do others teach these and is 'ir' in a separate phase (alternative spelling?)
    thanks for any info/suggestions




     
  2. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    The sound "er" can be written er, ur, ir, ar, ear and or
     
  3. You need one of Debbie's Alphabetic Code charts! They detail all the 'sounds' and the common ways they are represented by a letter or letters.

    www.phonicsinternational.com
    They're free[​IMG]


     
  4. You might be at the end of phase 3 but are the children.? All this phonics seems very teacher centred trying to get to the end of a phase before Easter. Why what's going to happen at Easter oh yes phase 4. Keep steamrollering on but in the end the children will hit a brick wall. There is a good thread on primary where some KS2 teachers are saying if all this phonics is such a great success why can so few children spell properly.
     
  5. So it can. Strangely I don't need to know that in order to read and spell well. It took me a minute to think of examples in words. Are we really expecting children to hold and use lists like this in their heads when it comes to attempting to spell? I spell without any reference to anything like this. I use my internal "does it look right" meter. Mind you, I suppose even some adults still struggle with knowing some exceptions - the number of times 'definitely' gets written 'definately' on these forums is alarming. But then those spellers may very well be using their phonic knowledge when arrivng at that wrong spelling. Not having been corrected, they have internalised a wrong spelling, and now it's hard to shift.
     
  6. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Unfortunately they don't come as a standard accessory for everyone.
     
  7. What should we do about that then? Where does the "does it look right" meter come from and how can we install it? I would guess the majority of posters on here use it, in fact, I would guess the majority of everybody uses it. I would also think that avid readers tend to have a qwikfit version, while people who see a lot of bad spelling get the substandard version. As teachers many of us will be familiar with seeing wrong spelling so much that we start to doubt our own instincts in spelling.
     
  8. In response to the original post from minilady:
    er and ur do make the same sound. I do not teach any other spellings of this sound in phase 3. We use Jolly phonics alongside Letters and Sounds-so I sent home the same picture to help parents with 'er' and 'ur'. The children know it's the same action. Do you have a copy of Letters and Sounds?
    In response to other comments on here-I don't think there is any need to rush to the end of phase 3 either. I didn't know thhis was an issue. I am just coming to the end but have no intention of moving straight onto phase 4 as the children need a break and I need to make sure they are confident with the new sounds...some oof them are so hard for the little ones!!! They also need to keep playing the games to consolidate what they've already learned. I'm sure I will teach phase 4 to some children who I know are ready, but that is a minority.
    Hope it helps minilady!
     
  9. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=36CDE732851259D28020419E291ECB8E.journals?fromPage=online&aid=2615012Abstract
    Results of recent studies comparing the spelling errors of children with varying discrepancies between their reading and spelling skills have yielded conflicting results. Some studies suggest that good readers-poor spellers (mixed) are characterized by a set of deficits that differentiates them from poor readers-poor spellers (poor). Other studies fail to find differences between groups of poor spellers who differ in their reading skills.

     
  10. Well, I've always thought that the "does it look right" meter is the ultimate result of multiple exposures to words through reading them (Perceptual Learning in action[​IMG]) However, the meter seems to work most effectively if the user has been trained to pay attention to the detail of letter order within words, by practice to automaticity in decoding and blending all through the word, as this enables them to instantly spot transposed or extraneous letters.
    Of course, one does have to learn how to read and get lots of practice in before the meter becomes operative.
     
  11. Doesn't there need to be also an examination of good readers-good spellers, and poor readers-good spellers in this research before it can show us how significant good reading is to good spelling. I would also say that sheer volume of reading is important, not just the ability to read well, so that you can compare children who are good readers with children who are good and avid readers in their spelling skills.
     
  12. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    There are a number of research papers thumbie that was just the most accessible as I don't imagine you want to pay to read them...
     
  13. I'm pretty sure that our school has a very high proportion of the 'good readers, poor spellers' variety.
     
  14. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    I certainly fit into that category at grammar school and my son still has spelling problems.
     
  15. But with so many possible alternatives and exceptions in the spelling of the English language, how can the transposed or extraneous letters be recognised through using SP? For instance my example of 'definitely'. Surely you can only really learn that it is not 'definately' by exposure. By your method a person is likely to write 'definitely', then, carefully blending through the word as a check, decide they have got it wrong and 'correct' it. Likewise 'friend', that 'i' is extraneous, and when 'ie' and 'ei' can make the same sound you can easily get confused about letters being transposed. This is why we see 'receive' misspelt as 'recieve' over and over again on here.Indeed, you have to read and get lots of practice in, but even with the first steps in reading, exposure to the same words repeated in simple texts can start to set the 'does it look right' meter.
     
  16. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    or you could pronounce it defin ite ly and not ate ly
     
  17. Are the poor readers better spellers than the good readers? Or is it simply that the ability to spell well lags behind the ability to read well. That would certainly make sense, especially when you consider that children may be trying to spell words they have not seen written and are relying on their phonic knowledge.
     
  18. Yes, change the pronunciation, or perhaps change the spelling. Perhaps Masha might suggest something.
     
  19. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    Since maizie teaches in a secondary school working withpupils who haven't been taught phonics that isn't likely.
     
  20. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

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