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English Progress 8 Measure

Discussion in 'English' started by install, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. install

    install Star commenter

    I simply don't agree - Maths and Physics are just as similar yet have more time...
  2. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Perhaps I have misunderstood then...

    "Level 3 qualifications

    AS levels will count in the appropriate element of the Progress 8 measure for their subject (for example, mathematics AS-levels will count in the mathematics slot, a French AS-level in the ‘EBacc group’, and an Art AS-level in the ‘open’ element). If a GCSE in the same subject has been taken the AS-level will always count in Progress 8 and the GCSE will not count, even if the AS has a lower point score than the GCSE. AS-levels at grades A and B will score higher points in Progress 8 than an A* at GCSE.

    Level 3 qualifications not included in the EBacc list can only count in an ‘open’ slot. This includes Free Standing Mathematics qualifications and Asset Languages Ladder qualifications.

    Free Standing Mathematics Qualifications will only count in an ‘open’ slot if a pupil has not taken an EBacc mathematics qualification.

    Asset Language Ladder qualifications will only count in an ‘open’ slot if the pupil has not taken a GCSE in the same language.

    One graded music qualification can count in the ‘open’ element of Progress 8, and can count alongside GCSE music."


    Point scores

    The point score scale for performance table measures in 2016 will change from the current 16-58 scale to a 1-8 point scale, where 1 is equivalent to a grade G GCSE and an increase in one point represents an increase of one GCSE grade up to 8, which is equivalent to an A* GCSE. Different grades in non-GCSE qualifications will also be given a score on this scale.

    In 2017, reformed GCSE qualifications in English and mathematics will be included for the first time in the Progress 8 measure. Further reformed GCSEs will be introduced in 2018 and 2019.

    These qualifications will have a new grading scale that uses the numbers 1 to 9 to identify levels of performance (as will other reformed GCSEs once they are introduced over the following two years). Points will be allocated to the new GCSEs on a 1-9 point scale corresponding to the new 1 to 9 grades, e.g. a grade 9 will get 9 points in the performance measures.

    Progress 8 and Attainment 8 measure in 2016, 2017, and 2018
    Guide for maintained secondary schools, academies and free schools
    DfE - September 2016
    install likes this.
  3. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    Maths & Physics belong to different subject areas so it's not really the same as English Lang & English Lit. It's like saying Media Studies & Graphic Design are similar ...

    @needabreak - some AS levels can indeed be counted in Progress 8 but you have to be careful with the cash-in codes for example AS Creative Writing would cancel out Lit GCSE even if the AS grade was lower than the GCSE (I believe).

    Originally, there was some discussion that a Grade 9 should be considered as an A** or an A Level pass but that isn't really suitable seeings as it's the top 20% as @CandysDog explained earlier.
    needabreak likes this.
  4. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    In that respect, there is some link between GCSE grades and AS grades – but only because the AS grades have been mapped onto the KS4 points system. This doesn't just affect Grade 9; it affects all GCSE grades as the AS grades go down a scale too (at the bottom, an AS Grade E is equivalent to a GCSE Grade D-and-half and will soon be equivalent to a Grade 3-and-a-half).

    However, this matching is just arbitrary. Few would agree that an AS Grade E and GCSE Grade D are of the same standard. Until quite recently, AS Levels were worth more points, but the Government lowered the values – especially at the lower end of the AS spectrum – to stop schools gaming the system: it's now only worth entering really exceptional students, who will get a high grade, for an AS at KS4.

    Grade 9 is actually a great example of the lack of a link between AS and GCSE grades. An AS Grade A is currently set a grade-and-half higher than a GCSE Grade A*. Next year, the gap will be increased to be a grade-and-three-quarters above a GCSE Grade 9. So, despite a Grade 9 being harder to get than a Grade A* (and an AS Grade A staying the same standard), a Grade 9 gets further away from the top AS Grade, not closer. The decisions on values, as I said, are arbitrary.

    There is no link between GCSE grades and AS grades in the actual awarding of grades. The last such link between KS4 and GCE was scrapped in 2000, when the A Level Grade N (previously the O Level pass awarded to A Level studebts narrowly failing their course) was last given out.

    So, yes, there is some link in qualification equivalence for league tables, but none in the standards set. Grade 9 was designed as a sort of super A* (or A**, as the media often call it), but there was no intention to make it AS standard (even though a student getting one would probably do well at AS).
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  5. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Yes. It pre-dates Progress 8, in fact. An AS Level will always count and replace its equivalent GCSE, even if the GCSE has been taken first. I believe it's another aspect of discouraged early AS entry unless the student concerned really is exceptional.
  6. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Sorry, it was 2001.
  7. install

    install Star commenter

    [QUOTE="snail_friendly, post: 11845964, member:

    I would hate to spend my 9hrs a fortnight on just English Language!

    All is explained ...9 hrs every two weeks...wow! You are very lucky - imagine what it is like then in schools that have 6 hrs every two weeks or 7 every two weeks.

    Also if the cross over were soooo great between English Language and Literature - why isn't it reported as being 1 GCSE rather than two and just combined into 1 GCSE?

    It all just does not add up. Getting through the content and skills of 2 GCSEs and preparing for Exams - yes 2 GCSEs not 1 or 1.5 - is a big ask in 6, 7 or even 8 lessons every 2 weeks....

    Also - some very weak students - with reading ages of 10 - 13 - do need to spend that time on English Language. It does not come easy to them and especially now that there is no Foundation tier...
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  8. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    You're right, having 9hrs a fortnight is very fortunate, it does take away some of the time pressures of delivering both GCSEs.

    However, in my previous school we had 7hrs a fortnight, we always delivered both GCSEs to all students regardless of ability and it didn't have a negative impact on the students.

    I maintain my viewpoint that studying both does not hinder the students - for example Paper 1 of AQA is responding to and writing fictional texts. These skills can easily be reinforced whilst studying, for example, Jekyll & Hyde (which my very challenging set 6 have loved (target grades of 1-3) - all be it in a very straightforward way). The creative writing they produced after looking at the way setting was described was amazing for their ability.

    In YR11 we have more Lit lessons than Language (we split teachers) and then we flip this in YR11. This stops Lit taking over ever single lesson!
  9. install

    install Star commenter

    So why would 9 hrs be allowed here? There must be a logical reason.

    Also - the question remains: if English Language and English Literature have soooo many cross overs why are they not combined together as one GCSE?
  10. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    It's just the weighting we get within the timetable ...

    Why should they be combined? Just because they have crossovers doesn't mean they are the same subject.

    Should Maths & Physics be combined?
    needabreak likes this.
  11. install

    install Star commenter

    Exactly - but there is a contradiction here for many schools because English Language and English Literature do not get the time that say Maths and Physics get ....
  12. install

    install Star commenter

    Thankyou to Candysdog,snail_friendly, needabreak, JL48, secretsiren, and GloriaSunshine for your thoughts. It really has proved very useful.My final summary - not necessary agreeable to all...

    1 Some schools get more time to teach English Language and English Literature than others
    2 The doubleweighting of English Language and English Literature is making schools enter their cohorts for both GCSEs or schools have always done this anyway
    3 There appears to be little opportunites available for students with low reading ages just to do the one GCSE and to work really hard on that - although if a student gains 'U' in one GCSE progress can still be doubleweighted in the best grade of the other ?
    4 School Progress 8 means that those with low reading ages could lose out more on a personal level because schools will now enter them for both English Language and English Literature Exams to boost the School Progress figures but not help the students gain a good grade in one GCSE
    5 Progress 8 helps the middle ability and the more academic students to do even better ?
    6 Some schools prefer to see English Language and English Literature as closely connected but not necessarily Maths and Physics or even any other subjects?
    7 Creative subjects lose out with Progress 8 as do Humanities - not double weighted?
    8 AS levels can count
    9 Maths is double weighted but doesn't have the same amount of content as 2 GCSEs
    10 Some feel that there is an advantage over Maths ?
  13. secretsiren

    secretsiren Star commenter

    With regards to point 6, I've found a lot of crossover between Lang and Lit. For example, the Lit questions require language analysis and evaluation while the Lang papers (for AQA certainly) have one or two questions per paper that require the same skill. Equally, teaching the structure of poems is a clear link with Q3 of Paper 1 which asks for structure to be analysed. We look at the Lit texts and how the writers engage the reader through structure which is good for really close understanding of the texts and works as revision for Q3. The 'to what extent do you agree' question from Paper 1 links with the idea of evaluating Lit texts, and the comparative questions of Paper 2 Lang clearly use the same sorts of skills as the comparative questions on the poems in the Lit exam.

    Creative subjects certainly are undervalued as they don't 'count' on the stats. And having seen the maths content, I wouldn't fancy teaching it all in any amount of time!
    install and snail_friendly like this.
  14. install

    install Star commenter

    And all these connections bring it back to the question - should it just be one GCSE then ?
  15. install

    install Star commenter

    And as I said earlier Eng Lang and Eng Lit have not gone ...they still exist as 2 separate and new GCSE Specs...
  16. install

    install Star commenter

    And students can only sit an English Language GCSE as a separate GCSE...
  17. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Not true.

    Technically, no student has to sit any GCSE. GCSEs are encouraged for the vast majority of students, of course.

    A student sitting both GCSE English Language and GCSE English Literature would have covered the National Curriculum. A student just sitting one GCSE would not have covered it. In the past, GCSE English did so, but it doesn't exist anymore.

    Any school choosing to enter their students for just one GCSE now would have to teach the rest of the National Curriculum outside the qualifications. Or, if they are exempt from the National Curriculum (like some academies), justify why they are not teaching it (which I think they would struggle to do).
  18. install

    install Star commenter

    No -not the case. A student has to cover the National Curriculum for Literature...but not sit the Exam...
  19. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Yes, that's exactly what I just said.

    And exactly the same rule applies for the English Language bits of the National Curriculum*. The content must be studied, but there is no rule that an exam has to be taken in it.

    The league table rules, of course, do encourage both GCSEs to be taken.

    * The National Curriculum does not differentiate between English Language and English Literature, of course – it's all called English.
  20. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Actually, the general consensus is that Progress 8 actually helps the arts, compared to what came before, because eight subjects are measured, not five.

    And nor does English Language or English Literature, which can also be double-weighted.

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