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English Progress 8 Measure

Discussion in 'English' started by install, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. install

    install Star commenter

    Is it just me or is it really unfair that one Maths GCSE is worth two GCSEs in the Progress 8 Measure?

    1 The English GCSE has to have the English Literature GCSE to be double weighted

    2 The Science GCSE has to have two Science GCSEs to be double weighted

    3 All other GCSEs count as single

    So why the unfairness????
  2. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    I don't agree. One English counts double too.

    The better English and Maths count double, while everything counts single. This is obviously to reflect the importance of English and Maths.

    While it's true that both English Language and English Literature must be taken for the better to count double, this is only to ensure both are taken. The best English GCSE alone is double-weighted. So it's one GCSE being doubled, just like Maths. Furthermore, the other English can count in one of the open slots, so English can actually take three slots (a double-weighted one and a single-weighted one).

    Science has no double-weighted slots at all. Its slots (in the EBacc section) are all single-weighted. It just happens that most students take two (or even three) sciences. They all just count like any other GCSE.

    If you think about it, it's really Maths that has the raw deal. English gets two chances, with the best being double-weighted and the other still counting. Maths only gets one shot.

    (I do agree that it is a bit odd that Maths is the only core subject that is only one GCSE, but it's always been that way. Long term, the aim is for Maths to be two GCSEs.)
    snail_friendly likes this.
  3. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    I think that Maths have the worst deal (as suggested in the post above),

    If Progress 8 had started this year the additional C grades (or better) in Literature would have raised our A*-A % by about 5% and our A*-C % by about 10%. Our 3LoP & 4LoP which are already above NA would also have significantly increased.

    However, Maths would have stayed the same.
  4. install

    install Star commenter

    I can see your points - but it doesn't add up.

    ONE Maths GCSE - Doubled- I repeat just ONE GCSE ??? Not the best of two like English ...

    And it s easier to focus on ONE GCSE rather than two.

    And Maths in many schools still gets the same time as English -how unfair is that???
  5. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    But the two English exams can count as three ...
  6. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    I do think the time allocation could do with being addressed in most schools!
  7. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    But it did start this year.
  8. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    Inititially I thought this but my SLT link said that the 2017 results would be the first where either Lang or Lit will count. This year we've only reported the Lang results.
  9. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    But that's exactly what happens in English. One English GCSE is doubled. The only difference is that it could be one of two taken.


    Perhaps, but I've never bought into the idea that one English GCSE is a distraction from the other. They overlap so much.

    A little, though the new Maths GCSE apparently has 50% more content than the old one. It's probably the largest GCSE out there (and a bit of a bodge because Ofqual couldn't find a way to split it into two GCSEs... even though Wales managed to).

    The real injustice is Science. They do two GCSEs and they usually get loads more time than English.
  10. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    It's definitely 2016. The entirety of the new accountability system has been introduced this year. The only change next year will be the new grades being mapped in.

    (The reason for this was that way back the new GCSEs were going to be first awarded in 2016. This slipped a year, but the new league table measurements didn't.)
    snail_friendly likes this.
  11. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    Congratulations! These are your actual results. Other schools will have benefitted too (our A*–C rate goes up about five percentage points), but your increase is significant.

    As Progress 8 is based on a much fairer measuring of progress comparing students of similar starting points to national averages (rather than just an arbitrary number of levels of progress), then the expected (three levels) progress measure has been dropped. Four levels of progress was never an official measure.
    snail_friendly likes this.
  12. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    @CandysDog I'm glad 3/4LoP has been dropped but my school still wanted to report it this year.

    Thanks for the congratulations - :)

    What is interesting is that colleges are still requesting students who didn't get a C in Language, but did in Literature, to resit Language until they do. I wonder how long this will continue for?
  13. install

    install Star commenter

    I don't agree that Progress 8 is a fair measure at all.

    In terms of English and Lit overlapping - they don't. You may as well say that Maths and Phyics overlap....

    Doing one GCSE is easier - no one can possibly argue that it is easier to do two?
  14. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    I think that the Lang & Lit courses are very complimentary to one another.

    I agree focussing on one GCSE is more straightforward but having a choice to pick from is a real benefit for English.

    What do you dislike about Progress 8?
  15. install

    install Star commenter

    Progress 8 fails the students.

    It encourages schools to double enter students when they would gain a higher grade in just the one GCSE by just concentrating on that.

    The student comes last in Progress 8. So a student who gains the equivalent of an English C in a single GCSE through a hard focus on one GCSE does worse for School Progress figures than a student who gets 2 grade D equivalents. And that is madness...

    It really isn't helping students gain the grades they need to move to the next step. But it will create more grade D and lower equivalents...
  16. CandysDog

    CandysDog Established commenter

    That only applies if you buy into students doing two English GCSEs being a bad thing. I really don't believe that is the case (with a few exceptions – some of which I explained in our conversation). I don't buy the focus on one English GCSE thing idea: students don't focus on one GCSE, they take lots – breadth is the whole point of the GCSE system.

    Also, both GCSEs need tonne taken to cover the English National Curriculum, so only doing one is on dodgy ground legally.

    The old league table system actively (though not deliberately) sidelined English Literature, pushing it out of many schools. Progress 8 fixes that.

    It should also be remembered that Progress 8 is only one of four measures in the new league tables. Two of the others – the English and Maths percentage and the EBacc percentage – do require an A*–C in English. There are still big incentives for A*–C grades in English.
  17. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    So many Progress measures in the league tables are just going to confuse parents and future employees - especially this academic year where students are awarded a mixture of A*-G and 9-1.

    However, on the other hand it may be more favourable to show how successful some schools, who have a high proportion of lower ability students, have been in terms of progress and of course broadening their horizons.

    I think it is morally right that students get to study both English Language & English Literature.

    I've always worked in schools where all students studied both - I think that if you've never been given the chance to study a text such as 'Romeo & Juliet' (for arguments sake) then you are culturally disadvantaged.

    I'm not sure I've explained myself well on that last point?

    I'm really interested in your views on Progress see 8 @install as a you are the first person I've encountered who feel it is unfair :)
  18. snail_friendly

    snail_friendly Occasional commenter

    Also, and I might be wrong, I thought I'd read in something published in Sept by the DfE that for both the Ebacc and E&M headline figures the grade that would be counted would be a Grade 5 in either Lit/Lang.
  19. install

    install Star commenter

    So what this is about is being forced to do 2 gcses and in less time than other subjects do 2 GCSEs?

    The students come last here...
  20. install

    install Star commenter

    And it seems that English depts are being hoodwinked too if they are not getting the same lesson time coverage as that of 2 GCSEs....

    I suspect that some English depts are also therefore not getting the same funding as that of 2 GCSE subjects ...

    I don't accept that doing 2 GCSEs is easier or that English and Lit are somehow the same GCSE.

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