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Employers want apprentices not graduates?

Discussion in 'Secondary' started by anon469, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. <font size="3">A City & Guilds poll of employers found that many would &lsquo;rather take on an apprentice than a graduate&rsquo;. Their conclusion was &lsquo;some school-leavers may be harming their job prospects by seeking a place at university this summer&rsquo;. If we see more young people go down the apprenticeship route will this be a positive or reluctant choice, what do people reckon?</font><font size="3">Carol, Education and Employers Taskforce</font><font size="3" face="Calibri">Read the full story: </font>http://www.educationandemployers.org/news-and-events.asp<font size="3" face="Calibri">Teachers&rsquo; Guide to working with employers: </font>http://www.tes.co.uk/teaching-resource/The-Teachers-Guide-to-education-and-employment-6069393/
  2. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    I have to agree.

    Blazer major. 4 years at uni, big debt, had trouble finding work and now doing a job that does not require a degree.

    Blazer minor. 7 years younger, left school at 16 got a modern apprentiship in business admin with the Police. Now 21 and earning only a bit less than his big brother and with no student debt.

  3. What is a graduate?
    Is it a young person with limited ability on all fronts who has a 3rd from Bolton Uni in Leisure and Tourism?
    Each person on their merits IMO.
    I personally find the Whole university undergrad system a waste of time beyond specific traditional courses which promote career opportunities.
    Too many young people who simply should have left school at 16, then didnt manage to at 18 stumble through and come out of uni with no additional useful knowledge, no realistic understanding of the world of work and massive debts.. All of this for a piece of paper that is worth very little and often never used.
    Its more a cultural/social progression rather than an education.
    Employers, IMO, should lok beyond a CV and actually talk to people and get out into the world to see who can bring something to their business. The same goes with teaching. IMO teaching should not be a graduate ENTRY profession but one where a MASTERS is essential within the first x, y or z years, supported by the school

  4. David Getling

    David Getling Lead commenter

    Education is something you should pursue for the joy and interest in what you are learning. It doesn't matter whether it's theoretical physics or Eric Clapton's guitar style. So the decision on whether or not to attend a university should be solely based on whether it offers something you really want to study. If not finding a job or apprenticeship is probably a better idea.

    People spend enough of their lives working, so going university shouldn't be about better preparing oneself for 45 years of servitude.
  5. Hi David
    I appreciate all the points you make.
    Lets look at teaching though.
    No degree, no way in. So those who were unable to go to university (now or long in the past) cannot get into the job without a massive life change (financially/time wise). I know many very very able subject knowledge rich people who would be amazing teachers who cannot get into the profession whilst many people completely unsuitable for teaching get onto a PGCE or GTP based on having studied a subject (sometimes at a great uni/good course whilst some less so)and having a piece of paper.
    Uni should be enjoyed, uni should be a good time but excluding those who decided not to or couldnt go is IMO not fair hence my comments RE it becoming a masters profession
  6. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    I took a bunch of our yr 10s to Birmingham UNi last year. The guy there gave a presentation that (to him) proved that a degree was absolutly necessary. In his powerpoint he showed a slide of jobs and the required entry qualifications 15 years ago. Most of the jobs were thigs like accountant, fireman, army officer, bank worker, gardener! and about a dozen other similar jobs. Then he showed the next slide which showed the same jobs and most required a degree to get in on the ground floor. Why? If a handfull of GCSEs were good enough 15 years back why did the job now require a degree to get you through the door. I bet the jobs were not paying more money.
  7. Strange
    I just cant seem to see the logic in having to have a degree in maths/english/science to teach the subject in schools where they have 40% GCSE A*-C
    I know a number of people who have very poor degree passes teaching without question yet many others who could service the vast majority of pupils in comps who are 'not allowed in'
    I fully understand the requirement for subject specialist in some schools with certain groups but many lessons can be delievered where progress is made by good, erudite teachers.
  8. There are a few reasons why a degree is needed to be able to teach.
    1) Having gone to university and studied a subject in great depth demonstrates that person has the aptitude and passion to teach it to others.
    2) Parents want well qualified teachers for their children.
    3) Whether studying a straight BEd in which QTS is gained automatically or a BSc (like me in pure mathematics) then a PGCE afterwards, the courses all contain material which is essential to the teaching practise.
    4) Why would you want as a student to be taught by someone equally qualified as you are?

    Although I see your point in that the level you are teaching at does not reflect the extent of your subject knowldege, how are our children supposed to "aim higher" without being surrounded by teachers who have been there and done that
  9. But I would also say that yes if I were faced with the current level of debt, I would opt out of university. There are still graduates from 3 years ago searching for a job that makes use of their degree, and any fresh graduates now are fighting along side 3 years of graduates who struggle ot find work to get a job such is the backlog. Then you hear in the news every day about more and more job cuts for example 10,000 police will go, 7,000 jobs in birmingham council, the list goes on which means now there are around 70 graduates all applying for 1 job.
    Whereas as an apprentice employers can pay you less to begin with so it is easier to get in, for example they can employ 2 apprentices for the price of 1 graduate. Secondly within the 3 or 4 years at university plus the debt aquired, it makes much more financial sense to work your way from the bottom up in a company that to go to uni and expect to arrive half way up the ladder, because in reality a lot of university courses do not offer anything that employers are looking for and the company you eventually work for will need to pay to train you up the same way as an apprentice anyway.

    I appreciate this is not true for all disciplines such as accountancy, that is why my advice to anyone looking to go to university is to only go if you know exactly what you want to do when you reach the other end, and study a degree that leads to a specific job. It is the most horrible feeling when you leave university without any direction, which can happen even with someone with a good 2:1 Mathematics degree.
  10. A City and Guilds poll? I'm sure they are unbiased in their research and findings.

    Also, just to point out that for most there is not a choice between apprenticeship and uni. That s far too simplistic. Most apprenticeships are still in traditional areas like construction, and the majority of funding is available for 16 and 17 year olds, not people who have been at college. Plus the fact that there is a massive shortfall of employers to take on apprentices, it is not an option for most people.

    I think there has been overselling of university as the key to all problems for years and that many young people would be better off going to work at 18 rather than just going to uni because it is what is expected.
  11. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    Whilst there are still mant apprentiships in construction and engineering there are now an awful lot in service industries and admin type areas.
  12. With all due respect, every point you make is massively flawed
    Point (1)
    And those who couldnt go don't have a passion for a subject? Take a sports teacher who has spent 15 years as a Premiership football physio working with some of the top players (young and old) who has no degree, only professional qualifications.....Let's take a talented musician who didnt go to uni...let's take a bilingual French citizen who has lived in this country yet not got a degree in French...The list goes on and on
    Point (2)
    Parents want the best for their kids. Of course they want the best qualified teachers. How on earth though does someone who have a degree automatically become a better teacher. Do you honestly believe a having a degree in maths or physics will allow you to handle the bottom set KS3 students who cannot stay in their seats?
    Does a parent want a teacher who is paper rich and skills poor? not in many of the situations I outline in my first post. To provide the best education for a parents child is about advancing their learning, not having a degree
    Point (3)
    So having a driving licence means people can drive correctly? A PGCE teaches people how to jump through hoops and box tick. Most of it is not teaching in the real world...That comes down to experience, nothing to do with a degree and so many follow a GTP after obtaining 'enough degree points' to be accepted on one.
    Point (4)
    What have qualifications got to do with knowledge and the ability to teach? Do you honestly believe that a flimsy degree from 20 years back in an unrelated subject is more suitable than someone who has read every text/studied every aspect/attended every training course on their chosen subject is not a better choice?
    What about potential Oxbridge students, must they be taught by people who have done all they will be doing at school?
    In the ideal world, every teacher would have the best degree in their subject, the best teaching skills and life would be good. Is that the case? not in the UK currently for sure.
    You don't need a degree to teach, simple enough. You need to be a teacher who can maximise pupils potential.
    How many times do you think I go back to my degree when I am teaching 80% of a timetable for pupils who are level 6 and below in maths? then answer? zero.
    Top kids need top subject specialists. Mots comps need teachers and people to inspire kids and until their 'subject specialists' raise A*-C above 40% then they are not in a position to argue.
  13. Yes, admin is one of the biggest employers of apprentices in my area. But again, these kids aren't actually kids who would be going on to uni, so its a silly argument.
  14. I work for Connexions and there are very few apprenticeships in construction and engineering, there are loads in office/administration.
    With reference to the OP, apprentices are often paid the NMW of £2.50 per hour, is it any wonder employers want school leavers?
  15. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    Actually the kids that should grab these apprentishps are the middle of the road kids who are being told they have to go to Uni even though we all know that it is the wrong thing for them. better they get into work at 16 then by the time they are 21 they will have 5 years of work experience, a wage and marketable qualifications. Something than most of the kids in their class who went to Uni won't have!
  16. A lot of kids don't have the maturity to work full time at 16. Lots of them do by 18. These 'middle of the road' kids need training offered at 18, not 16. That virtually discounts apprenticeships as most of the funding is limited to 16 and 17 year olds.

    Plus lots of employers only keep apprentices on to L2 rather than L3 - so a bit of a pointless qualification if the YP already has A-Cs. I think we need a rethink. Just saying 'most kids should do apprenticeships' is not better than saying 'most kids should go to uni'. We need better careers ed of kids and their parents.
  17. Robfreeman

    Robfreeman Occasional commenter

    Hmmm a poll run by City and Guilds one of the biggest vocational training providers in the country. One of the biggest training providers who owns AQA which is moving towards producing vocational qualifications. I am certain that the employers polled were not the same employers who offer their qualifications (And im made of wood and have an extending nose)
    On another note with regards to the middle of the road kids, which I was. If I had listened to the connexions advisor and my teachers. I would have gone onto a level 1 admin apprentiship. Having been told by the advisor that I didnt have it in me to go onto college and I certainly wasnt bright enough to get onto a degree course. My intended career path was to join the army he told me I didnt have the fibre to survive that.
    Lets look 9 years on shall we:
    I got the third highest GCSE results in my school
    A levels (I will give him that I screwed up badly, but was very good at interview for my degree)
    3 years Degree - I left with a 2:2 in Education Studies and Science, which was not an easy degree.
    PGCE - rated Good
    Certificate in Secondary Physics
    Joined the TA did 3 years and loved it
    Overall when I think back to all the useful careers advice I received, the voice in my mind just says up yours, I did it my way.
    If a person thinks they can achieve the entry criteria and they want to do it then why not let them. Instead of trying to guide them, even if they dont achieve it they have learnt an important life lesson, that of failiure.
  18. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    What does that say about modern kids then given that most kids of my generation (me included) left school at 16 and went into full time work. Most of us would have worked part time for years before that (I had my first saturday job at 12).
  19. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    Sometimes the restless students from school blossom into focussed workers - but sometimes they don't.
    We do students a grave disservice when we let people tell them that work is always fulfilling. For many it's boring, time consumiing and badly rewarded compared to the costs of living independently in this country. Somehow, despite all the PHSE, WOW and such like the notion of contributing to the economy doesn't always sink in.


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