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Election

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by bigjimmy2, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Established commenter

    Early days, but, thoughts?
     
  2. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Corbyn - Nice old man but hopeless. Gone by midday tomorrow
    Boris - Despite the lying, racism and avoidance of scrutiny, he could do a dump in the beds of English voters and for some reason they will still vote for him. Nuts.
    Sturgeon - She's getting her walking boots out again for Indyref 2, maybe with a visit to the Supreme Court first.
     
  3. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Corbyn - Nice old man but hopeless. Gone by midday tomorrow
    Boris - Despite the lying, racism and avoidance of scrutiny, he could do a dump in the beds of English voters and for some reason they will still vote for him. Nuts.
    Sturgeon - She's getting her walking boots out again for Indyref 2, maybe with a visit to the Supreme Court first.
     
    bigjimmy2 likes this.
  4. amysdad

    amysdad Established commenter

    We're doomed, we're all doomed...….
     
    bigjimmy2 likes this.
  5. AyeRight

    AyeRight Occasional commenter

    Interesting that in the wake of IndyRef1 many thought that was it for a 'generation'....unless there was a material change. For Cameron to offer that material change on the 19th Sept 2014 was an incredibly naïve strategic error. To watch all those pieces fall into place, the leave vote, the EVEL legislation and the repeated mandates from the Scottish electorate has been amazing. Seeing Northern Ireland return a Nationalist majority too is mind blowing. We are witnessing seismic shifts and the Tories don't care. As a clever man said this morning, 'the nationalist parties won in 3 out of the four countries last night.'
     
    catmother, Effinbankers and bigjimmy2 like this.
  6. MilkyBar Kid

    MilkyBar Kid Occasional commenter

    Don't think much will change short-term. Interesting to see what the Tories will offer Scotland in terms of further devolved powers, if any? Probably nothing, making Indyref2 almost inevitable. Without Scotland the Tories would have had a majority of 140+ in England & Wales, not sure why they are clinging on to the Union, apart from being unionists! SNP will wait and see how Brexit pans out next year, then focus all their efforts on the 2021 Holyrood elections on a clear Indyref2 mandate. If they win a majority then Indyref2 will happen late 2021 (with or without section 30 order), although I think the country will still be as equally divided again. Same old arguments will be ground out again with the added dimension of Scotland being out of the EU looking to get back in. Probably a closer result this time round. Unfortunately constitutional issues will dominate the political agenda in Scotland for the near future and no-one will notice (or even care) with what has happened to Education in Scotland over the past few years.
     
    Effinbankers and bigjimmy2 like this.
  7. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Established commenter

    1) Corbyn/McDonnell were a disaster. I'm sorry, but extreme left-wing politics may look just great on paper but not in reality. Had it been any other time, ie excluding Brexit, people would have looked at their mortgage payments and decided they didn't want to, or, more likely couldn't, pay another few hundred pounds per month: ie Labour would still have been annihilated. Nationalisation would have cost hundreds of billions of pounds - and that's just to buy the utilities in the first place (is the Royal Mail really that important these days anyway?). There would have been a flight of capital out of the country. Inflation would have rocketed and the pound would have sunk. Tens of thousands of people would have lost their jobs.

    2) Many working-class people in rUK voted Tory. That is a damning indictment on Labour. Labour's core vote has rejected socialism, or, at the very least, extreme let-wing politics. Blair is the only Labour leader to have won an election in the last half-century and he did it with centre-left politics: looks like Labour needs to return to that.

    3) The Tories have a golden opportunity to make the country a better place. Whether they do that is up for debate. They have a long time to implement policies so they can't have anyone else to blame if they screw it up.

    4) Brexit. Who knows how this will pan out? The divorce agreement will be finalised by 31 January. And then the future trade agreement discussions start. The EU has to be careful with this because if they give away too much then member countries will begin to question their own membership, perhaps triggering its ultimate demise. Russia will be delighted.

    5) If I were the SNP I'd hold back on a new referendum. Just now they're not certain of victory and, if defeated, then that would really be it for a generation because you can't keep having a referendum every five years until you get the result you want. Brexit is not guaranteed to be successful so I'd also wait to see how that pans out. Also, let's see how the Johnson government treats Scotchland over the next couple of years. There's also the Scottish government elections in 2021 and the SNP could use that to gain an actual mandate for a referendum. The SNP should also remember they won't always win 80% of MP seats and the Scottish electoral system is geared for minority government.

    That's my tuppence worth!
     
    Freddie92 and Effinbankers like this.
  8. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    The SNP need to push for a referendum now because hanging on for another 18 months will show dithering and they won't get the support they got on Thursday. They've already got a mandate from the Scottish parliament, so why wait another 18 months to get the same again, when there is the risk of not getting 65+ MSPs to vote for it. To me that would be brainless.

    There is no guarantee a referendum will take place before then - it will probably end up in the Supreme court at some point next year, but the SNP need to go all out to try and get it to happen. If the UK Government denies the request and the judiciary state that the union (effectively a partnership) cannot be dissolved by one side, that will not play well north of the border.

    What people fail to realise is that on Thursday Boris effectively won the election in 2024 as well. No UK party in the modern era has overturned such a big majority to win a majority of their own. The Thatcher/Blair landslides of 1979 and 1997 were effectively whittled down over 2 or 3 elections before the opposition took control.

    We (as in Scotland) now have Boris and his money hoarding chums for a decade controlling the flow of money we have to spend. We didn't vote for them.

    I don't think the Tories have any real interests to massively increase public spending or lift those out of poverty - because enough of the rest of the middle classes continue to vote them in. They don't need the support of those on the breadline.. The poor will remain poor and the rich will get richer
     
    sicilypat, bigjimmy2 and catmother like this.
  9. subman68

    subman68 Occasional commenter

    Sorry the nationalist parties won 4 our of 4. The Tory party & BoJo have made it clear they do not care what Scotland do and the majority of English voters are sick of the independence debate and if given a vote would vote Scotland out.

    The sad thing it that the SNP government in Scotland are not being held to account, there is no real opposition. Labour are a shadow of what they used to be, LibDem confuse themselves as to what they are doing and the Greens....God lets not go there, all over Europe the Green parties have real and workable policies, what do we get Harvey telling us all to walk to work and that kids are brilliant for going on strike on Friday afternoons.

    SNP vote is now like the old Labour vote, the working class are voting for them as the papers are telling them what to do and they do not have the intellect or willingness to find out the facts for themselves. Politics in Scotland is a sham, saying that the SNP should try and get another "once in a generation" vote as I think they would get 65% Yes this time round. More so when BoJo goes to work on us. Big issue is we then have a very untalented bunch of SNP MSP's to run the country. Stuffed if we stay, really stuffed if we go.
     
    Freddie92 likes this.
  10. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    You're being slightly unkind on the electorate in Scotland.

    Firstly, apart from the National which sells a handful of copies to a niche market, none of the main media channels openly support the SNP.

    Secondly, following 2014, the Scottish voter is probably more switched on to political events than any other part of the UK. When you've got the likes of Wullie Rennie and Jackson Carcrash in charge of other parties it's like shooting fish in a barrell.

    I take your point on some of the MSPs in the Scottish Parliament - of all parties - some are no more than jumped up councillors. I am at least partly consoled by the fact that the SNP does at least have some talent in Westminster - Cherry, Whitford, Blackman, Sheppard amongst others - that could certainly run our own country if they ever moved back to Holyrood.
     
    sicilypat likes this.
  11. Freddie92

    Freddie92 Occasional commenter

    I'd agree that at this present time do we really wish to go through more constitutional carry on? I am getting fed up with the lot of them: Tories, SNP, Labour, Lib Dem, Greens.

    Can we get our hospitals sorted (don't even get me started)? Can we improve the education of our kids? It isn't too much to ask is it? Why do we bother with holding referendums if they are just going to be ignored after a few years?

    I agree with Big Jimmy in that if we have an independence referendum within the next few years it could kill the whole thing. Isn't it better to wait until the Yes movement can win? And even then it might be better to wait until it is a decent sized majority. The worst thing would be to hold a referendum and the result was close. We have two sides who probably wouldn't accept a defeat. Makes me think of the Hillary Clinton fans who went protesting after Trump won in 2016.

    I am really sick of politics and politicians. Brexit hogged the airwarves for 3 and a bit years. I was bored to tears. Please spare me and others the torture of having to go through it all again with constant talk of #indyref.

    The thing to remember about all of them is that they are all in it for themselves. MPs, MSPs, it doesn't matter.

    I am fatigued with politics. I'd quite like for them all to get on with slowly making our lives all a bit better. Quietly.
     
  12. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    Fatigued with politics, but then you spend time commenting on a thread on politics? If you don't like it, don't read it, don't watch it, don't speak about it and don't vote.

    As for your rather selfish statement, whilst you may be happy for things to go away, have some consideration for the poor, the sick, the disabled, the homeless, those on zero hour contracts and public sector workers who have been trampled on for the last 10 years. We have the biggest gulf between the rich and the poor in this country for over a century.

    If we need more votes/referenda to put these people in a better position than what they currently have, bring them on. Letting Boris bulldoze horrendous policies through whilst everyone sits back and complains of fatigue is not an option. I don't think the suffragettes ever complained of fatigue to make things just and better.
     
    Miss_Haversham likes this.
  13. Freddie92

    Freddie92 Occasional commenter

    Missing the point.

    I am fatigued with politics. Yes. Am I not allowed to express my displeasure or do we all just tell the muppets at Westminster and Holyrood that they are doing a great job?

    The point is they are all playing politics instead of actually enacting policies to make our lives better.

    Where did I say I do not care about the poor, the sick, the disabled and the homeless? That's quite a silly thing to say. Re-read my post and look at what comes after what I said about being fatigued with politics: "I'd quite like for them all to get on with slowly making our lives all a bit better."

    Britain is divided over Brexit and is a mess.
    Scotland is divided over independence and is a mess.

    Maybe there's a correlation there. I'd like to see the NHS crisis being sorted rather than apportioning blame to anyone and everyone, and some real action taken in Education to improve our schools.

    Is that really too much to ask?
     
  14. Effinbankers

    Effinbankers Lead commenter

    I'm not missing your point at all

    Bizarrely, you said you wanted change to come "slowly and quietly"

    Try telling that to the family, with working parents, who rely on foodbanks because of their zero hour contracts and low wages which you can't live on, leading in-work poverty. 20% of the UK's population are defined as "in poverty"
    Try telling that to the people newly unemployed people moving on to universal credit who have to wait 5-6 weeks before they can get a bean to feed their family
    Try telling that to the people on NHS waiting lists who need urgent surgery but the cuts have led them to be at death's door

    I don't want slow and quiet change. I would like these people to have a better life very quickly - because that is possible.

    But the thing is - it's not going to get better under Boris. He'll quickly syphon off the profits and the wealth and give it to his Etonian chums whilst we wait patiently (and stupidly) for things to get better
     
    catmother likes this.
  15. Dominieredivivus

    Dominieredivivus New commenter

    Depressing times with echoes of Trump down south. The (very) right wing Bruges group is now calling (again) for a voucher system for state schools. They see this as the only way of stamping out the last bastion of "socialism" by which they mean free public education administered by a still highly unionized and independent work force. Be thankful for the SP which should protect Scotland from the worst of this fascist *******.
     
    sicilypat and catmother like this.
  16. catmother

    catmother Star commenter

    What's a voucher system?
     
  17. bigjimmy2

    bigjimmy2 Established commenter

    I think it's where parents are given cash vouchers which they give to the school of their choice. Under the guise of giving choice and control to parents whilst putting pressure on schools to "improve". I don't know the pros and cons so won't comment.
     
  18. Dominieredivivus

    Dominieredivivus New commenter

    Giving parents vouchers turns them into consumers of a product rather than partners in a process. The right wing of the Tory party have had this in mind for 40 years. They see public education as the last bastion of "socialism", dominated by lefty teachers obsessed with handing out prizes for failure, preaching equality etc etc. You're right, they've never
     
  19. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    In 1995, the Conservative Government proposed the introduction of a nursery voucher scheme. Parents were to be given a physical voucher for £1,100 a year which they could use to purchase nursery education from their LA or the private sector.

    Pilot schemes were undertaken during session 1996/7 in some LAs in Scotland. The scheme was scrapped by the new Labour Government after the 1997/8 session for being overly bureaucratic, something reported by many parents.

    Following that, the enactment of The Standards in Scotland's Schools Etc Act 2000 placed a duty on LAs to provide pre-school education to all three and four year olds and set a minimum number of hours a pre-school child was entitled to receive, if their parents wanted it.

    Section 35 of the Act also gave authorities express power to secure provision through suppliers other than themselves. In effect, this reintroduced a voucher scheme for pre-school education.

    The Children and Young People (Scotland) Act 2014 also increased the entitlement of three and four year olds, plus vulnerable two year olds, to 600 hours of government funded nursery provision.

    This, however, has caused its own problems because, unlike school provision where children normally start school together in August if they reach their fifth birthday by the following February, nursery entitlement only begins in the term after a child's third birthday. As a result, there can be a difference of about one year, in nursery provision, based purely on when a child's birthday falls.

    https://www.childcare-vouchers.net/...er-scheme/scotland-childcare-vouchers-scheme/

    https://www.mygov.scot/childcare-costs-help/when-funded-early-learning-and-childcare-can-start/
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019

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