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Does overseas experience count towards main pay scale?

Discussion in 'Pay and conditions' started by samanthamaw74, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. samanthamaw74

    samanthamaw74 New commenter

    Hello,

    I have just come back to the UK after teaching abroad for four years. Does this count towards my mps rate of pay?

    Thanks in advance if you respond!
     
  2. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    @samanthamaw74 , hello and welcome to the forums!

    This is a forum for help with problems with the forums, if you see what I mean, not for help in general.

    You need to re-post this query on the Pay & Conditions forum to get your answer. The answer may well surprise you, by the way.

    Best wishes

    .
     
  3. jomaimai

    jomaimai Established commenter

    Nope! You will have to negotiate it!
     
  4. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    Come along to Pay & Conditions and all will be revealed, @samanthamaw74 !

    .
     
  5. Middlemarch

    Middlemarch Star commenter

    No and it didn't even before the changes to STP&C.
     
  6. Crowbob

    Crowbob Lead commenter

    It used to depend on what was meant by 'overseas' and what was meant by 'teaching'.
     
  7. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    It doesn't any more!

    Best wishes

    .
     
  8. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    It doesn't give you the right to a salary above the minimum, but it might give you something if the school likes you enough and thinks your experience is relevant. And, by the way, it would be exactly the same answer if your experience had been in the UK and you were changing jobs.
     
  9. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    Hullo there. @samanthamaw74 .

    Your question is:

    Does overseas experience count towards main pay scale?

    Now in Ye Olden Dayes, when there actually was a payscale and years of experience meant that you moved up it, the years only counted if:
    • They were in a maintained school
    • They were directly employed by the school or a local authority, not via a supply agency.
    • They were in the UK

    So years that didn't count were in an independent school even in the UK, if they were years of supply teaching through an agency, if they were years abroad, even if in a UK curriculum school.

    But that has changed, but not for the better for you, I'm afraid.

    There is now no national payscale, only pay ranges. And each school has its own Pay Policy that decides (a) where they will place any new staff in the pay range (b) whether and how much they give each September in payrises.

    Read all about it here:

    No more Pay Portability, no more pay scale, no more automatic moving up the scale.

    So you will have to negotiate and persuade . . .

    Best wishes

    .
     
  10. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Splitting hairs I know, TheoGriff, and of no relevance now, but I think that experience in the maintained sector in the EC, and (I think) some other countries, counted. Your final piece of advice is spot on, of course!
     
  11. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    Nope! Had to be in UK.

    But if you managed to blag that, @Piranha, then well done you! ;)

    They didn't even allow the poor blighters who had been toiling for the relevnt number of days as supply through an agency to get a pay rise. Can you imagine the hoo-hah if they had allowed it for someone coming from abroad?

    Best wishes

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2015
  12. Crowbob

    Crowbob Lead commenter

    I disagree.

    If you treat objectively similar situations differently, without justification, it would be unlawful discrimination under EU law on free movement of persons. Article 45 TFEU. There is nothing in the old length of service increments that would suggest, in EU terms, any valid justification. The problem comes in determining what is meant by "comparable" in this sense (certainly wouldn't apply to independent schools abroad). However, if you had worked for the equivalent of a state school, then you would have a strong claim that you were entitled to a length of service award.

    I had made a post about this on old TES.
     
  13. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    The regs did not ever mention counting teaching abroad as qualifying for movement up the scale.

    What you are saying, I think, @Crowbob , is that somebody not allowed this could have made a claim under the EU law on free movement of persons.

    So presumably they could do the same thing for the qualifying period for maternity pay with one employer . . .

    Best wishes

    .
     
  14. Crowbob

    Crowbob Lead commenter

    And, I have just looked at old versions of the STPCD and it said the following (in the 2012 version):

    18.1.3 Subject to sub-paragraph 3.2, in the case of a classroom teacher who is a qualified teacher by virtue of regulation 5(b) of, and paragraph 8 of Schedule 2 to, the Education (School Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) Regulations 2003(70), or by virtue of regulation 5(a) of and paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to, the School Teachers’ Qualifications (Wales) Regulations 2012(71), the relevant body must award a point for each year of employment as a person qualified to teach school age children within state sector schools in the European Economic Area and Switzerland (other than in England and Wales).

    My emphasis added. So, it wasn't just service in the UK that was taken into account, unless I have read this incorrectly. It would have turned on the meaning of 'state sector'.
     
  15. Crowbob

    Crowbob Lead commenter

  16. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Yes, I remember that thread, Crowbob. I looked up the details at the time, which is why I posted as I did.
     
  17. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    OK, OK, I withdraw then! Thank you for pointing out my error, @Piranha and @Crowbob .

    Be interesting to know if anybody actually managed to get that,mind you. ;)

    But it seems unfair that some employment actually in a state sector school in E&W, but as a supply teacher, didn't gain you the increment.

    So . ., looking at the EU law on free movement of persons. Article 45 TFEU, Crowbob, is it discriminatory to require a certain number of weeks' employment with an employer to qualify for enhanced maternity pay? And discriminatory to make you pay it back if you move somewhere else in the EU so you don't return to that employer for x number of weeks? Teachers and others, which is why I say x weeks, not 13.

    Best wishes

    .
     
  18. Piranha

    Piranha Star commenter

    Sorry @TheoGriff, it was a bit of a red herring. I would bow to your expertise on just about everything in schools. I agree that it was unfair about supply teachers. Your point about EU law is interesting, although I guess that it would have been raised already by somebody in the EU if it were an issue.
     
  19. TheoGriff

    TheoGriff Star commenter

    .

    No need to say sorry @Piranha !

    I am flabbergasted that it should be so - ir rather that it should have been so . . .

    Best wishes

    .
     
  20. jomaimai

    jomaimai Established commenter

    Damn it!
    I am an EU teacher with lots of previous experience in an overseas state sector. I was placed in MainPaysomething and thought I was lucky that they considered a tiny part of my previous history.
    You think you have seen it all!
    Anyway, with the current law, it doesn't matter anymore.
     

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