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Do the SNP favour the scrapping of Denominational Schools?

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by Freddie92, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    socrates82


    "So you have no evidence of your beliefs to offer then Aber?"
    So what? My religion is none of your business. Your persistent questioning me and other Catholic posters about our religion reinforces my fears as to how you would behave in the classroom and in the staffroom.

    "And you know fine well, that no-one can provide "evidence" of the future behaviour of individuals."
    So you admit that you cannot give guarantees. Thank you for being so honest.
    "Although I would say your question is rather insulting to the Scottish teaching profession."
    How can a question be insulting?
    Moreover, there are many non-denominational schools in Scotland which are at present attended by both children of Catholic parents and "non-Catholics" (as you like to describe everyone outside your world) and, as far as I'm aware, there are no issues of "fair play".
    Can you prove that there are no issues of fair play, no issues of sectarian discrimination against Catholic children, no sectarian insults directed at Catholic pupils or Catholic teachers?
     
  2. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits


    "Every child is given the same education."
    Does that "same education" include being taught how to fit condoms to the appropriate part of plastic models?

    "Every child has the right to be treated fairly in the school"
    Yes, they have that right. Is that right to be treated fairly always homoured?
    "and the anti-bullying policy apply to EVERY child in the school, including catholic children."
    Can you approve that the Catholic children are protected from sectarian bullying? The theory is fine but, in my experience, the practice often falls far short of the theory.

    P.S. What proportion of the pupils are the children of Catholics? What proportion of the teachers are Catholics?
    At least, you have tried to reassure Catholics. Other posters seem to take the attitude that we should trust everyone.
     
  3. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    The Catholic bishop should not have entertained any suggeston of a joint campus.
     
  4. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    cyrilla

    "you do not seem to make the difference between a non-catholic and an anti-catholic."
    I plead "guilty". Where I live nearly all non-Catholics are anti-Catholics.

    "the Catholic religion is not dead in France."
    It is not dead but it is very nearly dead.

    "Religious education not being part of the curriculum, religion takes place in the home and does not cross the school gates."
    Are the children of Catholics being taught by anti-Catholics? Are the children of Muslims being taught by people whose life-styles are repugnant to Muslims? Are Jewish children being taught by Nazis?
     
  5. Any child can to opt out of an activity they are not comfortable with, whether for social or religious reasons.
    Do they have Mass in catholic schools? If so can a child opt out of it?

    In our school (and I suspect most) bullying is bullying - the cause of it does not affect the process in dealing with it.

    No idea. What would we do with the figures if we knew them? If every child is to be treated fairly, then why identify those who are catholic?

    I'm not trying to reassure catholics. I'm simply pointing out that in a non-denominational school, there is is a greater potential for ensuring fairness than in a school which preaches one particular brand of religion.
     
  6. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    I have no idea what religion other posters are. It was you who kept insisting "prove this" and "prove that" - so I was merely highlighting the irony. You seem to want to be judge and jury on what has to be "proved" and what doesn't?

    I agree with other people's assessment of this in respect of anti-bullying policies etc. which apply to all.
    Interestingly though, the Bishop you mention in Post 81 once claimed that <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2274383.stm
    ">?Catholic education contributes to the problem of sectarianism"[/URL] although he added it was a ?price worth paying?.
     
  7. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

  8. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits


    "Any child can to opt out of an activity they are not comfortable with, whether for social or religious reasons."
    I do not believe you.

    "Do they have Mass in catholic schools? If so can a child opt out of it?"
    Please compare like with like. Catholic schools do not claim to be religiously neutral. Non-denominational schools do make that claim and many of the posters attacking the existence of Catholic schools make that same claim.

    "I'm simply pointing out that in a non-denominational school, there is is a greater potential for ensuring fairness than in a school which preaches one particular brand of religion."
    I disagree. If all the teachers and pupils in a school are Catholics, no Catholic pupil or teacher need fear sectarian harassment.
     
  9. This debate goes on and on.
    I am wary of the attitude this topic generates everytime it comes up on here. I wonder why it is such an issue here but not in England?

     
  10. Whether you believe me or not makes no difference. If a child wants to opt out of activities which go against their religion, then they can.

    It wasn't an attempt to compare like with like. It was to point out the hypocrisy of demanding evidence that Catholics are treated fairly in non-denominational schools whilst being fairly open that Catholic schools would not treat non-catholics fairly. Children should be treated fairly independent of their religious views or social background.
    I think you're the only one reading this thread that can't see the irony in what you post. You demand that Catholic children are treated fairly, yet your fairness does not extend to non-Catholics. Fairness means everyone is treated the same, doesn't it?
     
  11. It's not even an issue in some parts of Scotland. We've got all sorts of religion up here yet I've never experienced the sort of situation described by Aber.
     
  12. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits


    "Whether you believe me or not makes no difference. If a child wants to opt out of activities which go against their religion, then they can."
    Where is your evidence for that? Did the teacher ask the students "Do any of you want to opt out from this class?"


    "It was to point out the hypocrisy of demanding evidence that Catholics are treated fairly in non-denominational schools whilst being fairly open that Catholic schools would not treat non-catholics fairly."
    There is no hypocrisy in seeking guarantees from those who are making a case against Catholic schools. I am not trying to change the status quo. I am under no obligation to make a case. The onus is on those who want to put Catholic children into the clutches of anti-Catholic teachers to produce guarantees, cast iron guarantees.
    "I think you're the only one reading this thread that can't see the irony in what you post. You demand that Catholic children are treated fairly, yet your fairness does not extend to non-Catholics. Fairness means everyone is treated the same, doesn't it?"
    No. In my home you have no right to equality with me. In a Catholic school, non-Catholics have no right to equality with Catholics. In a Jewish school, non-Jews have no right to equality with Jews. Your demand for equality with Catholics in a Catholic school is especially provocative in view of the circumstances which caused Catholics to establish their own schools.
     
  13. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits


    "It is not even an issue in some parts of Scotland. We've got all sorts of religion up here yet I've never experienced the sort of situation described by Aber."
    If you have never experienced anti-Catholic bigotry, why interfere with the attempt of Catholics to protect themselves?
     
  14. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    So, in your opinion, pupils should not be allowed to express a religious opinion in school. Is that what you're saying?
    You have just said: "We are failing in our role if we expect kids to blindly accept something which has not a shred of evidence" and now you're saying: "It's not a teacher's place to comment to a pupil on their religion any more than it would be to comment on politics."
    Which is it? Would you respect a pupil's religious beliefs or would you try to change them?
    You have the right to question the validity of anything you like, and parents have the right, backed up by legislation, to send their children to denominational schools. However, just because you hold an opinion about religion and denominational schools, does not give you the right to impose your views on others, expect them to adjust their views to fit in with yours or require them to justify their religious beliefs or the need for denominational schools.
    Well, to start with, every area taught in the education system does not require proof and evidence. Some areas of study require interpretation, evaluation, judgement, opinion etc and even scientific study often starts with a hypothesis which one then sets out to prove, or disprove.
    However, to try to compare the study of, let's say, physics with the exploration of religious beliefs is somewhat pointless because one is about what we can know, or hope to learn, in our lifetime in this world, and the other is about what we believe in, and hope for, but cannot fully understand in this life.
    Although this may appear contradictory to some people, others believe the pursuit of human knowledge and the exploration of religious faith can be complementary, including some distinguished scientists.
    Ultimately, most religious beliefs tend to centre around the idea that we are spiritual beings and that we continue to exist after our physical life has ended. The concept of an 'afterlife' has been around since earliest times and, even today, there are those with no affiliation to any particular religious group who still consider themselves spiritual beings and believe there is a purpose to life beyond what we are able to see or understand.
    Of course, for others, this makes no sense because they cannot believe in something if they can't find, or be given, the evidence that it exists. As far as they are concerned, when you're dead, you're dead and that's the end of it. In simple terms, we are all just physical living organisms that have no other purpose but to live, compete, reproduce and die.
    However, is it really so strange that some believe there is more to life than that? Is it illogical to believe that there is a purpose to life beyond what we are able to see or understand, that the people we know, and love, continue to live after they die and that one day we will be reunited with them?
    Ah, I hear the sceptics say, all that is just a delusion.
    That's fine. If you're right, you won't know one way or the other and, if you're wrong, you won't have that long to wait, in the evolutionary timescale of things, before you know you are wrong.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    You know fine well that I?m talking about teachers teaching religious opinion as fact.If a pupil expressed a religious view then teachers would deal with that sensitively in a way that wouldn?t upset the child or their family.

    See answer above. Teachers are constrained by what they can and should say on these topics, quite properly. I don?t have a case to answer here - because I never have expected kids to accept something which has no evidence. It is for faith schools and those who teach doctrines as fact to justify that, at least if they want the state to continue to endorse it.
    Who?s imposing anything? I?m arguing for a change to the system which would only be achieved by democratic means. I believe a change to the system would end division and allow all children to receive a more evenly-presented range of ideas and information, which is their right.

    A 2008 <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
    "> survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God [/URL]


    Of course that?s a legitimate view to hold (albeit not a very rational one, in my opinion) and children should be made aware of how this supernatural view manifests itself in all the major world religions. But that?s different from it being taught as fact or holding services of worship based on this view, as if it was somehow ?true?, or using it as some sort of ?moral compass? etc. As I say, parents can do all that if they wish in the home or in their religious building of choice. All I?m arguing for is that state schools don?t endorse this skewed presentation any longer.

    And if you?re wrong, you?ve spent a huge part of the one life you have being deluded.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. given that you pretty much generalised a negative impression of non denominational schools perhaps it may be allowable for those schools to defend themselves from your accusations?
     
  17. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    I have seen generations of children pass through denominational schools and, for the most part, they seem to have turned out a pretty balanced lot, well prepared, and confident, to mix with others in society from a wide range of backgrounds.
    I am often intrigued by the notion that we should simply leave children, and young people, to grow up shielded from parental influences so that they can make their own decisions when they are adults.
    Life is not a vacuum and if parents do not pass on to their children what they believe to be important, they can rest assured that someone else will do the job for them. Parents are the first, and most important, educators. If they are providing a loving and secure family background, they don't need anyone else telling them what 'rights' their children should have.
    Good, so let's agree to differ until the issue of denominational schools is up for debate.
     
  18. In a word, yes. I really don't understand why you can't believe that pupils would be given an option to refuse an activity which goes against their religion. It happens regularly in our school without any fuss or bother.

    You can impose whatever rules you want in your own home...

    Now I'm thinking you're trolling. What a ridiculous statement. If it's what you truly believe then I can see only one bigot in this thread.
     
  19. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits

    "I really don't understand why you can't believe that pupils would be given an option to refuse an activity which goes against their religion. It happens regularly in our school without any fuss or bother."
    I am glad that the school, in which you teach, respects diversity.


    "You can impose whatever rules you want in your own home..."
    Thank you.


    "If it's what you truly believe then I can see only one bigot in this thread."
    Yes, that is what I believe. Catholic schools are for Catholics. Muslim schools are for Muslims. Jewish schools are for Jews. Anyone who questions that is a bigot.
     
  20. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    CheesyWotsits"given that you pretty much generalised a negative impression of non denominational schools perhaps it may be allowable for those schools to defend themselves from your accusations?"
    I suspect hat non-denominational schools are very suitable for children and teachers who are not Catholics.
     

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