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Do the SNP favour the scrapping of Denominational Schools?

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by Freddie92, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    But Christ is also God is he not? ("I and my Father are one") Therefore these schools must also be promoting the values of Yahweh, the OT God, who is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal and capriciously malevolent bully.Not a great role model for kids I'd say. Nothing wrong with the other values you mention such as charity, global citizenship etc - but you don't need any supernatural beliefs to endorse those. Millions of people worldwide are good without God.

    Phasing out denominational schools would merely put Catholic parents in the same boat as those of all other religions, minority Christian denominations and those with no religious beliefs who already don't have "a choice". That's why a fully non-denominational state sector would be the fairest system for everyone.
     
  2. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    socrates82


    "You don't get many "better" fences than those between the Shankhill and The Falls."
    The bulk of the people in both localites seem to be very happy the Freeland Fence is still intact.
    "Surely children who go to school together are much less likely to see "differences" than those who are educated in a school system which actually endorses religion-based apartheid."
    The experiences of Northern Ireland, Cyprus, the USA and Bosnia tells a different story. The experiences of many Catholic children in non-denomination schools in Scotland also contradict your gospel.
     
  3. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    Cthulthu


    "- you don't have to be a Catholic to teach in a Catholic school"
    Why not?
    "until today I was against denominational schooling, but I've now changed my mind: anything that precludes my having to work beside someone like you is to be commended."
    The feeling is mutual. The bible advises "Come ye out from among them".
     
  4. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    cyrilla
    "who would think we are in the 21st century when one hears such narrow minded statements on religion?
    when I read Aber's comments"

    It does not matter what century we are in. Catholics have a right to try to keep themselves and their children safe from anti-Catholics.

    "I was brought up in France where religion and state have been separated since 1870."
    France, a country in which secular education destroyed the Catholic religion.
    "I mix with Muslims and have done so at uni, and do not feel threatened."
    How well are Muslims treated in French schools?
     
  5. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    Not a greatly balanced, altruistic and pluralistic view this, is it?
     
  6. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    Who says that one must be pluralistic? Or altruistic? Or balanced? Security comes before all else.
     
  7. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    You, as an adult, don't "have" to be any of these things Aber.
    But if your mindset is an example of what faith schools produce, then I'd suggest the sooner they all close, the better.
    And as for this ...
    I find it rather ironic that someone who insists on the "right" to indoctrinate impressionable young minds with bronze-age myths, is demanding proof.
    Can you prove even one single bit of the evidence-bereft mumbo-jumbo that you espouse?
     
  8. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    socrates82


    "I find it rather ironic that someone who insists on the "right" to indoctrinate impressionable young minds with bronze-age myths, is demanding proof.

    Can you prove even one single bit of the evidence-bereft mumbo-jumbo that you espouse?"

    If you were teaching a class which contained the children of Catholics, would you describe Catholicism as "bronze-age myths or mumbo-jumbo"? Can you prove that you would behave yourself?
    Why should any Catholic allow his defenceless children to fall into the clutches of a teacher who has such a prejudiced opinion of Catholicism? Here you are arguing for integrated education and you make no attempt to conceal your anti-Catholic opinions.
     
  9. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    An interesting and, if I may say, a rather hypocritical response Aber.
    I would be no more likely to offer my opinion on religion as I would on politics. Teachers should not be ramming their personal opinions down kids' throats. I am clearly "anti" all religion (in that I don't believe any of it has any basis) so it's not particularly "anti-Catholic".
    You will recall that you very recently told us "heretics" that we would "burn in hell" (really great sentiments for kids to learn?) and yet you get all wounded if someone calls that mumbo-jumbo?
    I ask (again) ... can you prove even one single bit of the belief system that you espouse? Please inform us what evidence you have that it's NOT a bronze-age myth?
     
  10. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    That's not my experience.
    The Scottish Catholic Education Service has produced 'A Charter for Catholic Schools in Scotland'. The SCES Charter can be found as an attachment at the foot of the page on the link below:
    www.sces.uk.com/approval.html
    Yes, one of the characteristics of a Catholic school is 'a commitment to uphold the moral teaching, faith tradition and sacramental life of the Catholic Church' but is that surprising given that it's a Catholic school?
    Other characteristics are:
    'an inclusive ethos which aims to honour the life, dignity and voice of each person, made in the image of God'
    'the provision of religious education programmes which will enable young people to develop their understanding of Gospel values and of how to apply them to life'
    'a commitment to ecumenical action and the unity of Christians' and
    'the promotion of respect for different beliefs and cultures and for inter-faith dialogue'.
    Catholic education does not just involve learning about religious beliefs. It involves living, and developing, those religious beliefs as part of a school, and wider, faith community. For those of other faiths, or none, who attend a Catholic school, it involves participating in the life of the school faith community in a way that is consistent with their own religious beliefs and parents' wishes.
    Why do you assume children, and young people, in denominational schools are not being given objective information, are uncritical or unable make up their own minds?
    Moral issues are often complex and the Catholic, or Christian, perspective is just as valid as that of the secularist. Indeed, if, as you claim, non-denominational schools are teaching in a factual, critical, objective, balanced and pluralistic way, why are you giving such an ill-informed, biased and dismissive view of denominational schools?
    And if, and when, the SNP, or any other political party, puts forward such a policy, the parents of the children directly affected, and the wider Catholic community, will be able to tell them exactly what they think, face to face, through the courts and at the ballot box.
     
  11. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    There's no way round this, however you try to fudge it. Only a maximum of one faith can be "right" and all the others must be wrong. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. As you admit, the duty of Catholic schools is to uphold the faith tradition of the Catholic Church.
    Moreover, you talk about Catholic schools being "inclusive". And yet children from a different religious background (or none) clearly encounter bias:
    Where is the iconography of their religion?
    Where are the pics of their religious leaders visiting the school?
    And why should they have to "opt out" of anything?

    Fair enough but these perspectives could easily be put across in an objective and balanced discussion in a non-denominational school.

    All eligible voters will be able to vote. I can't see why Catholic parents should get so upset at basically being placed in the same position as parents of every other religious belief (or none) who currently don't have a religiously-biased school to send their kids to, even if they wanted that.
    The majority will decide on what's best for a future Scotland.
     
  12. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    Looks like the charter's not 100% successful!
     
  13. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    socrates82

    "I would be no more likely to offer my opinion on religion as I would on politics."
    Can you prove that you would behave properly? And can you prove that all other teachers would also behave themselves?
    "Teachers should not be ramming their personal opinions down kids' throats."
    Unfortunately, many do.
    " ... can you prove even one single bit of the belief system that you espouse?"
    No. Nor is that relevant. The important question is "In a single education system would Catholic children, teachers and parents get fair play? My opposition to integrated education is based on very secular considerations.
     
  14. Aber1991

    Aber1991 New commenter

    Flyonthewall75Please call a spade a spade. Catholic schools exist to educate Catholic children in safety from their enemies.
    Never try to reason with our enemies.
     
  15. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    I beg to differ Aber.
    It's one of the most relevant questions any educationalist should ask. We are failing in our role if we expect kids to blindly accept something which has not a shred of evidence.
    ?Faith" is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Those who expect kids to accept something on the basis of "faith" are doing them a monumental disservice.
     
  16. The school I work in has children from around 30 denominations/religions, including catholic, protestant, orthodox and muslim. Every child is given the same education. They get the same choice of subjects. They all get PE, PSE and Religious Education - they all get the same Religious Education course.
    Every child has the right to be treated fairly in the school and the anti-bullying policy apply to EVERY child in the school, including catholic children.

    Unless by fair you mean Catholic children should receive special privileges, like a separate area where they can gather without having to mix with other religions?
     
  17. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    A Catholic bishop suggested exactly this when councillors were considering a "joint campus" in North Lanarkshire a few years ago only he wanted separate entrances and separate staff rooms too . The bishop only back tracked when it was pointed out that they used to do it in places like Alabama.
     
  18. Flyonthewall75

    Flyonthewall75 New commenter

    So if, for example, you had Muslim, or Sikh, children in the school, from families who take their religious beliefs and culture very seriously, you would think it was your role, and duty, as a teacher to dissuade those pupils from following their religious beliefs and culture.
    I suspect the families concerned, your LA employer and the GTCS might have something to say about that.
     
  19. Aber 1991
    you do not seem to make the difference between a non-catholic and an anti-catholic.
    the Catholic religion is not dead in France. Atheists just make sure that it does not rule the country!
    I have not heard of Muslims being badly treated in schools. Religious education not being part of the curriculum, religion takes place in the home and does not cross the school gates.
     
  20. socrates82

    socrates82 Occasional commenter

    I'm afraid you miss the point totally (maybe deliberately?). I support keeping religious opinion out of schools.It's not a teacher's place to comment to a pupil on their religion any more than it would be to comment on politics. And, as I thought we had agreed, schools are obliged to ensure that religious education does not counter a family's beliefs.
    But if you're saying that just because someone is a teacher they have no right to question the validity of faith schools in a forum such as this, then I disagree absolutely. What kind of democracy would that be?
    Can you answer the point please FlyotWall, about the obvious contradiction in an education system which requires proof and evidence in every other area taught and yet somehow expects kids to accept the concept of a supreme being without any evidence?
     

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