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Do part-timers lose bank holidays?

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by chriszwinter1, Mar 17, 2012.

  1. chriszwinter1

    chriszwinter1 New commenter

    Please don't refer to a day on which you don't work and for which you are not paid as your "day off". It's nothing of the sort. It's your time. Use it as you see fit.
  2. You will not get the bank holiday, but you will get a day off in lieu for the diamond jubilee. Make sure that you ask for it, if it is not offerred.
  3. The bank holiday is Tuesday 5th June. Where do you work if it is 16th April?
    Unforunately the 5th June is in half term for most of us, so we do not get an extra day off - and my school, among many, has added a work day to Easter to compensate for it!! (I don't understand that one, or do they think we are too thick to notice?)
  4. DaisysLot

    DaisysLot Senior commenter

    If you don't work on a Monday you don't get paid for it, therefore you don't lose a day of pay, or the day off.... As for the additional jubilee day, our school added a days holiday to xmas to compensate for the extra bank holiday falling in half term - this should be the case in most settings, and I think the school adding a work day to easter is pulling a fast one...
  5. Ruthie66

    Ruthie66 New commenter

    I thought that as the Diamond Jubilee is in half term people were getting the day some other time, you should be working 194 days this year rather than 195.
  6. Henriettawasp

    Henriettawasp New commenter

    Ah - but we also had an extra day's work on February 29th.
  7. I think this thread must have the record - the most people - all in agreement who are ALL COMPLETELY WRONG.
    If you work 0.8 - you will be in school for 156 days a year. Now if you count the days you are in work if you just turn up on every Tue - Fri for the school year if will be in excess. You are owed these days in lieu - or you could request payment for them instead.
    There is a widely held belief that part timers work a random amount of days and fts work 195. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
    This year - ft teachers are only working 194 days - because they have an extra day allowed for the jubilee bank holiday.
    Your 0.8 days for this year will be 155.2 - giving you an extra 80% of a day.
    Headteachers usually deliberately misunderstand this very simple principle - or else find it all very very confusing - which is a sad reflection on the intelligence levels of HTs.
    It is very simple - dont even go to directed time - get the number of days sorted. Directed time then has to fit into the correct amount of days.
  8. Technically, you are correct. A part time worker is only entitled to a pro rata amount of extra holiday.
    However, I don't know of a single school that intends to only allow a part day for the Jubilee. Schools that go down the pro rata route for part timers are likely to find themselves stirring up a hornets nest.
    In my LEA for instance there are 194 days to be worked Monday to Friday, but a part time worker working Tuesday and Wednesday will end up working 78 days. If given the 0.4 pro rata diamond jubilee that would leave 77.6 days which is exactly 40%. Fine?

    But next year, and most years, the patterns of weeks/days means that these workers will be working one or even 2 more days than they should. Most teachers just accept this, but if schools push the issue, the schools will be worse off as part time teachers assert their rights.

  9. I don't know of a school that is giving ANY pt staff ANY time for the Jubilee bank holiday. I think it will be the norm that part timers will not get any/all/part of the bank holiday.
    The actual holiday itself appears to be within a normal half term week. LEAs will have adjusted the term dates to finish earlier or start later by one day - and this day will just be part of the 'random' system which most pts seem to be happy to accept.
    The term dates are correctly worked so that a ft teacher works EXACTLY 194 days this year. Not a random number of days - roughly between 194 and 200.
    1) Why do pt teachers accept this random amount of work for a fixed amount of pay?
    2) Why do HTs/HoDs look so completely disgusted when a pt teacher actually has the balls to ask to work the correct amount of days for the pay they receive?
    3) Why do the majority of ft colleagues not understand the completely straightforward system of how many days a teacher works - unless if applies to themselves?
    I find it slightly odd that pt staff suddenly 'wake up' when there is a bank holiday which they realise they have an entitlement to - but are not getting. The entire rest of the year - when there are usually about 3 days that they work in excess of their contracts - that seems to be accepted as perfectly fine!!! Also - the 3 days actually often equate to an entire weeks pt work. I'd like to see which ft teacher would work an extra teaching week for no pay.
  10. strawbs

    strawbs Established commenter

    Surely this is only true if 0.8 = 4 days. For many part-timers, especially in secondaries, 0.8 could be spread over all 5 days, and they would be contracted for a specified number of lessons. E.g. if the week is 25 periods then 0.8 = 20 periods - this could mean they are paid for 4 out of 5 lessons per day.
  11. No - its true for all pt workers. You've chosen an example which will ALWAYS work correctly. I have used an example which needs a bit of working out..
    If you take 195 * .8 it is 156 - so you work 156 days (equivalent) . This year its 194 which is 155.2 - which magically gives you 0.8 of a day less and hey presto you work 0.8 of every day and you are working one day less and you don't have a problem. !!!!- If you work them evenly spread over the week then obviously you will never be owed / owing any time it will always work out properly.
    I don't think that spreading 0.8 (or any other %) equally over the week is at all common in secondary. It would be very difficult to allocate the correct amount of teaching to ppa to other duties. You would almost inevitably suffer from 'trapped time' when you realistically had to stay on site but weren't being paid.
    I know it is more common in primary for teachers to do 0.5 by working every morning or every afternoon and so they would be in every day. Again - those arrangements don't require any calculating as they will be fair, although in practice there might be some directed time problems.
  12. Our LA has sent out very clear guidance to all schools about this years extra bank holiday, as follows:
    Firstly this went to all staff to correct a misunderstanding:
    Diamond Jubilee Bank Holiday
    Some of you may have seen the information regarding the The Queen's Diamond Jubilee on the DirectGov website, which states that ‘If a school is already closed on the 5 June for Half Term or another reason, it will be able to close on a different day'. This is entirely misleading as the extra day has already been accommodated for.
    As you all know, a school year is made up of 195 days - 190 of which have to be teaching days, the other five are set aside as training days. For this academic year, the school year has only been scheduled for 194 days; minus the five training days you are left with 189 teaching days, one less than usual to compensate for the fact that the Jubilee Day falls in the Summer Half Term.

    Then all Heads & Finance/Personnel staff were sent this, so they could make any necessary adjustments:
    The Government has announced that there will be an additional Bank Holiday to celebrate Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee.
    The 2012 late May Bank Holiday has been moved to Monday 4 June and additional Jubilee Bank Holiday will be on Tuesday 5 June.
    In our LA, the May half-term holiday has been moved to the first week in June to coincide with the two bank holidays.
    The Department of Education has amended the teachers' terms of employment so that they are required to attend for work for 194 days during the 2011/12 academic year rather than 195 days and this has resulted in schools closing earlier in the summer term by one day. The additional closure day is a Tuesday.
    Part-time staff have a pro-rata entitlement to Bank Holidays. It will therefore be necessary to make some adjustments to leave for some of these employees:-
    Full time teachers are paid an annual salary irrespective of actual holiday/bank holiday entitlement and as they will be required to attend work for one day less in the 2011/12 academic year, no adjustments are necessary.

    Part-time teachers. Where part-time teachers do not usually work on a Tuesday, they will not get the benefit of the additional closure day and should therefore be given 1/5th of their weekly
    hours off in lieu. These hours may be taken at any time by agreement with the school.
    Support Staff employed 52.14 weeks per year.
    • Where their normal days of work include a Tuesday, employees will be entitled to take the Queen's Jubilee Bank Holiday off with pay, as with any bank holiday.

    • Where their normal days of work do not include a Tuesday, they will not get the benefit of the additional closure day and should therefore be given 1/5th of their weekly hours off in lieu. These hours may be taken at any time by agreement with the school.
    • Staff employed for less than 52.14 weeks per year and their normal days of work include a Tuesday - Because the 2011/12 academic year has been reduced by one day, resulting in schools closing earlier in the summer term, no adjustments are necessary.
    • Staff employed for less than 52.14 weeks per year but who do not work on Tuesdays -
    Where staff do not usually work on a Tuesday, they will not get the benefit of the additional closure day and they should be given 1/5th of their weekly hours off in lieu. These hours may be taken at any time by agreement with the school.

    We have been working out the pro-rota entitlement for our part timers (and rounding it up to keep it simple!) and negotiating with them as to when they would like their 'bank holiday' time off. We did the same last year, when we had an additional bank holiday for the royal wedding.
    Sorry that was a very long post, but hopefully it will help some on this thread to challenge their schools if they have not been offered similar arrangements [​IMG] I am sure the Unions are able to provide similar guidance.
  13. This is spot on, exactly what should happen.
    Can we all now agree that pt days/hours are not supposed to be random numbers?
  14. Strawbs - not quite sure what point you are trying to get across. I do disagree with you - it is very uncommon for anyone to work 0.8 over 5 days. It is just about <u>the most pointless </u>pt arrangement that could possibly exist.
    If your timetabler felt 'unkind' you would just be working full time for 0.8 salary and have to remain on the premises and therefore 'on call' when you are unpaid. But you can't be asked to do this - you might agree to it if it suited you I suppose. But you would have the right to leave the premises - but by the time you had left - you would need to be returning to get ready for your next lesson. Why would anyone want to do that? Can I suggest that your timetabler is not being kind or doing you any favours - this is just what you are entitled to. You should not expect anything less.
    There are a wide variety of arrangements - I've worked most of them - but I would never on your life work 0.8 over 5 days.
    However - the point I was making - is that whatever your pt arrangement is - it certainly does not include any random working for random pay. There is a straighforward way to work it out, which I think we now can all agree on. The point that you seem to be worrying about - is that when you convert you 0.8 to days - that is for comparing to ft - not to force anyone to work only full days.
    Therefore - IF you work 0.8 over 5 days - you don't work 5 days - you just work ON 5 days - you work 4 days but split over 5 days. You don't HAVE to work 4 days on 4 days - obviously.
  15. strawbs

    strawbs Established commenter

    we'll agree to disagree...........

  16. Hi,
    I work Tuesday, wednesday and Thursday and have done for two years.
    I have never, therefore, 'benfited' from any bank holidays on Mondays or Fridays.
    I'm sure it has been said on this post but just want it clarified for me in my position! but am I therefore, entitled to ask for some time back? Not necessary to backdate the last two years , but from now on?
    my contract is 0.6
  17. Start for this year. Full time is 194 days. Therefore you are employed to work 116.4 days this year.
    You should have 3 days of Inset and 113.4 teaching days.
    Now just count up the days from September for what you will actually work this year. the difference is what you are owed. Be prepared to stand your ground.

  18. Thank you for your response!
    I don't mind standing my ground when I am sure of all the facts...
    Does it complicate things that I was on maternity leave from March 2011 until December 2011 so 'technically' I didn't work any days from sep-nov?
  19. I don't see how it could make any difference at all. Just count the days as though you worked them.

    I worked mine out properly at the start of the year and took one day in lieu early in the autumn term, which was all that I was owed. Because of term dates, bank hol and my working pattern I was actually owed less in lieu this year than in any previous years. It usually works out at between 2 to 4 days for 0.5
  20. It's not a total misconception. Where the Monday bank holiday is the only day of the week that is a holiday - and Tue to Fri are normal working days. IF you don't work Mondays - you will be owed some time in lieu/payment. If you DO work Mondays - you will likely owe them some time.
    The whole situation would be remedied if LEAs made sure that a term had 195 days, and an equal amount of each day of the week. Eg Always start terms on Monday and finish on Friday. OR start on Tuesday and finish on a Monday OR start on a Wednesday and finish on a Tuesday etc etc. Then make sure that all the INSET days are spread across the weekdays. It did happen by accident one year in one LEA I worked for.


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