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Do FE Teachers (PGCE FE qualified) have a GTC number??

Discussion in 'Further Education' started by ewenwitchfinderhater, Jul 22, 2008.

  1. As I said in my previous post, I apologise for confusing people when I wrote that pre 2007 PGCE FE teachers don't have to join the IfL or do any CPD. However, I stick by what I wrote when I wrote that apart from joining the IfL and doing CPD, they don't have to do anything else because that comment refers to the part of the regulations which stated that teachers with a PGCE FE qualification before 2007 are encouraged, rather than legally obliged to gain QTLS. Thus, I don't think that my post was disingenuous at all. I was merely trying to clarify the points made in my previous post.

    I was also trying to answer the OP's question about FE and GTC number, rather than get into a debate about the legal ramifications of the 2007 white paper. I shall therefore say no more on this subject except to ask what on earth is this teacher reference number that people have mentioned on here? The only number that I have is my IfL membership number. Is that the same thing?

  2. Oh witchy!

    Now you're just being snurdish :)

    The original Q was about GTC numbers, that led to TRN numbers; FP etc answered that, and then we all got sidetracked back to IfL QT(L)S etc!

    All Qs answered I hope!

    Or we'll all still be typing at midnight :O
  3. This is an old argument/debate cleared up sometime ago. To reiterate as was then your teaching pensions reference number is the same as your DfES number as was then. On your certificate it states what university you went to and the subject/stage you passed in. The university passes this information on to the GTC and they have records of all eligible people.

    To test this last year I phoned them up quoting my DfES number because I thought I might sneak in through the back door. They told me they had no record of me passing a "recognized teaching qualification for the purposes of teaching in the state sector(QTS) therefore, could I send them a copy of my certificate to prove that i was qualified.

    Of course I would be unable to provide proof so all mention of numbers thus becomes invalid.

    Hope this clears things up.

    If you hold PGCE(FE) unless you take a conversion assessment(do they still do these?) you will not be able to register with the GTC.
  4. I don't know what conversion courses there used to be, but after speaking to a friend who got a job as Psychology teacher in a school 6th form, and after doing so myself recently, I've found that the only options available are:

    1. Do the GTP with the school that we're working at.

    2. Do the distance learning Assessment Only Based (AOB) route to QTS with the University of Glos.

    My friend chose option 1 and I chose option 2. I'm waiting to hear if I've been accepted onto the course.

    Wish me luck!


    PS. alexander tg, did you get your PGCE before 1987? If so, you won't have QTS. The daft people that you spoke to at the GTC should have realised this!
  5. For what it is worth Qualified Teacher Status is not closed to FE teachers who can meet the old 2001 regs ( or 1999 regs if you prefer).

    It is true that all teachers have a ( what was called a DES or DFES number - FE and school teachers.). For School teachers the QTS number is the same as their DfES ( or equivelent) number.

    The GTC have a register of all teachers who have received ( registered with because they can prove they "qualify") QTS.

    Like with the IfL it varies according to when you trained or in some cases , without training , started teaching.

    Although the GTC were pretty cocky a few years back and claimed all teachers who could register were registered, the reality is many still are not. They realised that a new statutory instrument was created in 2004 to list all those who could at any time in the future register and obtain QTS by proving the appropriate documentation. Most of those who can register but may not be work in sectors where they do not have to register ( independent schools, FE, HE, private training organisations etc.)

    For most intents and purposes though, most FE trained teachers and others do not have and cannot obtains QTS without re training ( even the assessment only route is a form of demonstrating you have re trained by meeting the criteria.

    However, if you were teaching before 1989, have a science degree and were FE trained at any time since you can register automatically ( for the sake of sending evidence of qualifications) with the GTC.

    If you graduated before 1974 and were teaching before 1989 with any degree or anyone of a number of diplomas, you can get QTS without re training or even training at all.

    If you work/ worked in Independent school and want to change over the same rules apply as apply to FE teachers, except I dont think you need a teaching qualification.

    Otherwise you have to train and get QTS via a recognised training route.

  6. Thanks for that clarification, *******!

    Btw, Lynsita is no longer registered on the TES forums (due to privacy issues) but she asked me to say a heartfelt thanks to you for the support that you gave her on a thread in the behavioural forum (which she also asked the TES admin team to delete due to privacy issues)!

    So, if I have a teacher reference or FE equivalent dfes number as well (I qualified in FE in 2005), who do I contact to find out what it is?
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    See post 6

    The GTC for your country. Your course tutors should have registered you at the start of your course.

    Third Officer posted this last week:

    "I phoned the GTC in England, who supplied the necessary info. You will need your National Insurance and date of birth.
    0870 001 0308. "

    The number doesn't mean anything until or if you achieve QTS. But it is useful for applications.
  8. Just a bit of clarification required....

    I am hoping to do PGCE (Post Compulsory education) in September at Newport in Wales. Once I have (hopefully) successfully completed this course, woudl I be qualified to teach in England's FE colleges or would I have to get QTLS/IfL memebrshp before I could apply for jobs?

    Oh I do wish the whole blinking system was simpler!
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter


    Once you have successfully completed your PGCE PCET or equivilant, you are fully qualified to teach FE in Wales.

    To teach FE in England, (or do your placement in England) you must join IfL, before applying or on accepting any FE teaching post (part time, supply or full time, temp or perm). Once you have gained the job, contact IfL straight away to start the QTLS process. You can teach without it, but must have registered with IfL, for CPD and may as well go for QTLS. Contact IfL to clarify.

    Agreed, it is not the easiest. Why IfL applies only to England must be doewn to some political or civil service suit (or a quango making easy money).
  10. Thanks for your swift reply - this whole system in Wales seems to be operated for the benefit of no-one. There seems to be no encouragement for people to train to teach and certainly not at FE level! I just hope my application to Cardiff or Newport prove successful - 'cos I have few other options at the moment.
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    Good luck.

    I have been seriously considering retraining (which means starting all over again) for secondary in England.

    I did my PGCE for FE in Wales, but found it ridiculously hard to find an FE job worth the effort.

    I did ask IfL if they would cross the border and assess me for QTLS, if I join IfL. The man I was talking to just laughed! Told that it wasn't possible at all.

    SO my PGCE PCET is nigh-on useless. Unless Wales comes up with an IfL of its own, it will be very difficult to apply for posts in England. And that feeing of holding a sinecure of qualification. Yeah great passed the course, but still not allowed to qualify....
  12. welshskyline

    welshskyline New commenter

    well, Furious, that's "devolution" for you.
  13. Quals in wales are endorsed by SVUK in the same way that they are in England, in any case Directive 2005/36/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council on the recognition of professional qualifications requires mutual recognition across all EU member states.

    I know that the LLUK, SVUK and IfL know this, so I doubt you were laughed at - in fact I suspect you are making this up.
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter


    Resorted to petty mindedness? How childish.

    I rang IfL yesterday. My main question was to inquire if IfL could observe my lessons and allow me to participate in CPD through their programmes. The man I was speaking to then laughed. He had to explain to me that Ifl applies only to those teaching in England. He had a pleasant manner and good humoured. Unlike most encounters with quango callcentres. He also added that I'm not the first from Wales to inquire.

    Yes my PGCE is recognised. But it is annoying, not to mention career hindering, not to be able to reach QTLS. Meanwhile trying to find an FE job in England is made harder. It means FE teachers in Wales could become second class, as they cannot acquire QTLS. Just hope the Welsh Assembly sort this out.

  15. "Re:Witchfinder_specific

    Resorted to petty mindedness? How childish."

    I can't see how my perfectly polite reply to you was 'petty minded' - disagreeing with you doesn't make me petty minded.

    "He had to explain to me that Ifl applies only to those teaching in England."

    I am not in England at present but am a member of the IfL. I have looked into your claim for colleagues (surprise surprise) qualified in Wales. I was told (and read in their freely available literature) that a teacher qualifying in Wales has an equivalent qualification and can get QTLS through professional formation starting this September. So we have conflicting advice from the IfL, it seems.

    "Yes my PGCE is recognised. But it is annoying, not to mention career hindering, not to be able to reach QTLS. It means FE teachers in Wales could become second class, as they cannot acquire QTLS. Just hope the Welsh Assembly sort this out."

    You CAN get QTLS, but you don't have to. The only thing the Assembly needs to sort out is the mandate, and I understand they prefer GTC(W) - a backward thinking move, as the GTC is simply a registration body without the forward thinking position on CPD adopted by the IfL.
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous New commenter

    FAO Mikewebs

    Good grief this is turning complex.

    IfL phoned me at 1310 today, in response to my queries. Seems that I have been given wrong info. (caused in part by me and them not asking the "right" questions. However they were very professional and had responded).

    Wales based FE teachers can join the IfL.
    [the confusion came about over fees and funding issues]

    When the QTLS scheme starts in Sept 08, Wales based IfL members can apply.
    [another area of confusion. they had assumed I was just starting the PGCE PCET course, not already holding it.]

    Application for the QTLS scheme is optional for Wales based FE teachers, but if they want to work in England, will become necessary, so best do it as soon as possible.
    [another area of misunderstanding. they first answered that as IfL membership is mandatory for England based FE teachers, but not needed in Wales, Wales based FE Teachers couldn't apply]

    They have no info on a Wales based 'IfL' or QTLS route.

    DELLS has not responded yet to may queries regarding if Wales recognises QTLS, or if it will set up a 'IfL' of its own.

    I am trying to clarify or correct what I have posted before. Sorry I have caused any confusion, as I was posting what info I had.

    Lets hop nothing changes....
  17. Well.... thank you Furious Purpose - that information has been very, very helpful to me. It's nice to find people who will help those who (like me) get lost in the whole teaching officialdom.

    Many thanks - I will bear your information in mind for the future (should I ever qualify!)

    Enjoy your summer!
  18. Can someone help me with respect to getting qts, (having cert ed, degree, and so on )


  19. You said

    if you were teaching before 1989, have a science degree and were FE trained at any time since you can register automatically ( for the sake of sending evidence of qualifications) with the GTC

    (by teaching, do you mean school or FE college)

    if so would you please tell me how I can get QTS (this way)


  20. If you have a science degree from a British University ( or CNAA) taken before 1989 and were teaching in FE or school ( even if only for an hour a week!) you can qualify.

    You will need to check the statutory instrument.

    If you call the GTCE and tell them that you qualify for GTCE registration under the 2004 statutory instrument ( I think its section 10 a or 11 - not sure been a long time since I looked at it) and you want an application form they should be able to send you one.

    Fill it in, get it signed by the principle of your current college or school , enclose photocopies of your current docs ( the sig of the college verifies the originals have been seen) and that should be it.

    Thats what I did except I did it when it was still 2001 statutory instrum,ent ( 2004 is the same it just lists a load more conditions for different teachers and groups of teachers)

    Your GTCE number will be the same as your DfES number and your TPS number ( if you are in the TPS) . It will not be the same as your IfL number though.

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