Discipline

I suspect that there is only one sure-fire option left to address escalating classroom indiscipline. At the stroke of a pen, make access to education a privilege and not a right - a privilege that requires strict adherence to discipline rules, with zero tolerance.
Only two problems:
(1) It will transfer the problem out of the classroom and onto the streets;
(2) It will never happen because of (1).
Nice dream though.

 

Brilliant!

 

I second that - just had a really, really, really hard day. Have tried reasoning. Have tried threats. Have tried short pieces of work and rewards. Have tried everything I can, and I am exhausted from it. Am now making a Ritalin grenade - will tell you how it goes...

 

All the fancy ideas in the world. All the 'new' let's treat them as wee adults. All the let us have a relationship. Total BS. What is needed is weans in class with respect for teachers, good management, real sanctions - i.e., out of school and removed to a special unit until they behave. If they don't they stay there.

I think it is quite simple tbh.

Sick of lack of respect, swearing, fighting, useless SMT, no work being done...

It is not rocket science. Weans need sanctions, and at the moment there are none. Time to get tough on the weans and the parents. You can't look after your wean, - in care, straight away.

 

I agree. Sounds like the return of Big Jimmy to me, I might be wrong . . . . .but we've almost got a reunion on this thread.

 

Go on admit it,
Standards dropping like flies.
Behaviour appalling.
CfE is a total joke. Nobody knows what it is.
All the 'experts' telling us we are in the best educational days ever.

Scottish Education is the laughing stock of the world.
And it is only going to get worse.

 

Yeah - not talking about kids like that - I mean the ones that could learn but won't. It's the gang culture stuff that I have to face everyday. Wee boys thinking they are men - their language is appalling, they are violent, they want to be excluded,

 

I have had the experience of teaching in five different comprehensives across Glasgow in the past four years. It is my opinion that the difference between kids being well-behaved and willing to work, and apathetic and disruptive, is the influence of senior management. If the senior management in a school are strong, and instil a positive ethos, then the children tend of feed off of this positive and encouraging atmosphere and they invariably come to their lessons in a calm manner, and are willing to sit down and listen to their teacher. If the senior management are weak; if they sit in their offices and stay away from classrooms and generally do their utmost to not get involved, then the kids get the idea that they can do whatever the hell they like without there being any consequences for their behaviour.
Senior management need to patrol the school. They need to visit classrooms and tell kids to straighten their ties. They need to walk into classes and ask teachers if there are any problems. Weak senior management is often the cause of poor discipline in schools, not the area in which the school is situated.

 

Could not agree more. In my place SMT hide away. No one patrols the corridors. Kids are allowed to wander freely in classtime. The way the kids talk to the behaviour guy is dreadful. We, the class teachers, have to deal with this nonsense everyday, while the SMT are nowhere to be found...

 

I guess I am talking about the List D schools of years ago, before inclusion sank the good ship education.
I was never in favour of them, but as I am getting older, and seeing the state our schools and society is in, I would get them back. We have a major problem, and it is not being addressed.

 

So you're not talking about special units, you 'guess' you're talking about List D schools.
I'd be intersted to know then, how many children in your school would you identify as being more suitably placed in a List D school - and what percentage of your school population is this ( roughly) ?

I'd also be interested to know if you can tell me when this inclusion thing finally happened?

 

How many in my school? - would not like to identify myself through that - maybe about a quarter of this school could benefit from being sperated from the rest and put on special programs.
You seem to be picking hairs and on the attack. - I am being general about the appalling behaviour. I was trained as a teacher, not as a social worker, which is basically what I am doing now. Kids know we can do nothing really. The parents do not give a monkeys because they have been through the same system.

 

If you read the standard for full registration, you actually trained as a teacher of children, which includes dealing with the randomness of their behaviour and trying to channel their energies into the lessons you offer them.
Kids don't come into your class with the respect that you feel is due to you. I came through school in the 70's and 80's and teachers were, on the whole, respected - I'm guessing you came through a similar system. We can't take it for granted that these pupils should respect us any more than they should expect us to respect them or, for that matter, any more than your senior management team expects you to respect them. It's cliched, I know, but respect is something that has to be earned, even by teachers.
Think about the management team you have talked about in your posts. Do you respect them? Should you? Should you respect them unconditionally? Are you right in your disrespect towards them? If you feel you are, then why do you expect pupils to respect you unconditionally? Just because they are kids? Where's the respect there?

 

I too came through school in the 70s and 80s and yes there was more respect, but that was mostly down to the fact that teaching was still a profession which was respected by parents and by the general population. Things have changed dramatically since then and the lack of respect kids have for teachers now is down in part to parental attitudes, the parent's own experience of school and the constant media bashing being given to the teaching profession.
To throw back at you one of the Scottish Governments' initiatives which is being hammered into the school curriculum as an "extra", schools are now expected to be Rights Respecting Schools. If we are to take that whole notion to its inevitable conclusion and we teach children what their "rights and responsibilities" are then it is incumbent on them to also understand the "rights and responsibilities" of teachers, and I would hope that one of those rights for both parties would be "respect", which should be an expectation rather than something which has "to be earned" even by teachers.
SMT should enforce this expectation as a central part of school ethos and not shirk their responsibilities by hiding away in offices; that, after all, is what they are paid to do.

 

No I do not respect the management in my school - they hide in their rooms, and when they do teach they cherry pick the best classes...
Kids should respect their elders, period. That is what is wrong with society. And management are not my superiors. I have chosen not to climb the greasy pole to get away from the classroom.
Kids are not adults!!!

 

See, this is what I don't understand. The implication is that everyone has the right to be respected whether they have earned it or not - pupils, teachers, and, presumably SMT too?Yet your lack of respect for SMT appears to contradict that.
The lack of respect is evident throughout every school - pupils and parents don't respect teachers, teachers don't respect the SMT. In turn, the SMT don't respect the teachers and worst of all, the teachers don't respect the pupils and parents.
Can/should respect be "enforced"?
I do believe it has to start with SMT creating an ethos of respect in the school, but they can't do it alone. Teachers have to be a big part of the process, since there are much more of them and they are the ones in direct contact with the pupils.

 

Yes, of course it has to start with SMT, but if they don't do it? What then? Schools in chaos. They must get the ball rolling. I have known some really amazing SMT and I am also experiencing the other side now. Strong leadership will trickle down the schools hierarchy. It is not rocket science. And all thsi stuff about having to gains kid's restpect is poppycock. We are far too soft on our kids these days.

 

They also run the school, they deal with difficult parents on a daily basis, have to deal with the extreme cases of discipline, they manage initiatives and try to get an entire team of staff all working together for the benefit of the school. All of this whilst commanding, apparently, NO respect from you.

Which period? Victorian?
You don't appear to respect your superiors/colleagues. Does that not strike you as hypocritical?

Lack of respect, in general, is whats wrong with society. It's not restricted to children. I was in a queue the other day when an old woman and her daughter, who was about my age walked right past me up to the till. Not an excuse me, or "I'm in a hurry, do you mind?" or anything. Just right to the front.

But they are. They manage you. How would you define superior?

 

You could try what I've seen done in a few schools. The teachers take the ball and run with it. Set up a committee to look at problems, get the committee to come up with workable solutions and present the agreed solutions to the SMT. It' would be a stupid SMT that turned down something they didn't need to do any work for.

We may well be, but times are different. Some school manage to create the right ethos, even in difficult areas. Instead of moaning about how things used to be better in the past, we shoud be looking at the schools that have turned things around and making the SMT examine what makes those schools work. If you don't think the SMT have got it in them to do that, then get the teachers together as a group and present a case to the SMT. Be proactive about it.

 

See this is what happens when a quote is taken completely out of the context in which it was written, a moan I seem to recall you having on another thread.
Everyone has the right to be treated with "respect", does not neccessarily mean they are "repected" per se. And did I say I had no respect for SMT, I only stated that they should do the job they are paid for. For the record I do have a highly visible SMT and my HT pops in and out of classrooms on a daily basis, I would also like to think I have the respect of my pupils too. Perhaps it is a more clear cut and easily enforced expectation in primaries; more community spirit, a closer knit teaching team and better personal relationships with the kids, the parents and other teachers. Perhaps secondaries are too big, too impersonal and staff in different departments know little of how each other work or live or even care to.
Yes, you are right it has to start with SMT which is what I believe segbog was trying to say all along. But without their support it is doomed to failure; expectations come from the top.