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Discipline

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by segbog, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    What has that got to do with what we are discussing? Why
    suddenly use that as an attack on me just because I'm trying to
    engage in a civilised discussion with you?

    And do you think after 35 years in education - 20 in a school - I
    have any illusions about just how badly children can behave? If you
    were at Jordanhill during my time, that means I have at least three
    times your experience – do you think everyone has managed to keep
    it all hidden from me in all that time?

    I find your personalisation thoroughly demeaning and insulting.
    You have just alienated someone who was attempting to build bridges.
    I hope that isn't how you routinely respond to your pupils.




     
  2. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    By describing the realities of a situation which I know exists in schools now as a result of economic conditions which are not under our control, you had my complete sympathy - until you decided to take an unwarranted and gratuitous pop at "soi-disant experts".
    Why the need to alienate people who might actually want to help in any way they can? Shouldn't you be railing against the politicians and financiers who have got us into this mess with public services rather than against those who try their best to disseminate good practice? And it is good practice - as you point out, these are strategies which work for a while but which are defeated by the day to day grind of the present climate.
     
  3. So, you consider yourself one of those "soi-disant experts"? Sensitive! I was thinking rather more broadly about the whole raft of HMI, LST (what do we call them now- ESers?), QIO, SMT, Leaders of Learning, Uncle Tom Cobley and all. Although coming on with your own name and own photograph is rather asking for it, Raymondo.
     
  4. There is now an epidemic of stress related illnesses amongst teachers and the profession does not seem to care about its own workers. There was a survey the other week naming teaching as being amongst one of the the most stressful jobs. In what other job do you get attacked, sworn at, working seriously long hours, and all on a temporary contract which guarantees you nothing? Your union kowtows to some seriously unreasonable demands, there are hardly any jobs, there are 1000's of teachers sitting on the broo or getting by on a couple of days a week. And we have to put up with feral behaviour as well? Scottish education is in a crisis...and those in charge do not even know...or care to know (Government that is!)
     
  5. uberman

    uberman New commenter

    You don't, by any chance, work in my school do you? Down in the deepest, darkest Borders?
     
  6. No, my friend. You might consider the Borders deep and dark, but I work in the heart of darkness.
     
  7. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    I use my own name because TESS asked me to as I was on one of their support groups. I didn't realise being genuine and up front was "asking for it", though perhaps you value honesty less than others.
     

  8. Nobody (from what I have read) is attacking you personally. If you choose to define yourself within a group whom teachers feel are ignoring problems or adding to them then so be it. (You may well be one of the good guys!)
    But as for being genuine and up front this is not a secure site, pupils and parents have posted opinion on this site, do you really think that in this day and age (ratemyeacher,facebook,etc) that it is wise as a teacher to put your name (and photo) in the line of fire?
     
  9. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    As I say, TESS asked me to register with my own name, I write for
    them occasionally and I was on a support group. Hard to keep
    myself secret under those conditions – and what have I to be scared
    of? I haven't called children feral, I haven’t said I dislike
    them, I haven’t said schools are hell.

    You're right, no-one is "attacking" me: but the OP knows
    I'm an ITE lecturer and introduced the notion of lecturers who don’t
    know what's going on because indiscipline is hidden from them., which
    was completely irrelevant to the discussion we were having even if it were true.
    Next thing, "experts" are being blamed for class sizes and
    heavy timetables. That is just lazy thinking and should be
    challenged.



    Perhaps we can get back to the debate we were having. Why are good children ignored in our classrooms?

     
  10. They're not entirely. In my school and department, they're set from October in S1. The top sections get all the attention they need. The downside is that there are other sections who need more attention than anyone can give them. SMT have told me I should do mixed-ability, but they're also worried about losing middle-class pupils. What do they want?
     
  11. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    Well, they have to fight the fight with the parents if they want mixed ability.
     
  12. But I don't want mixed ability either!
     
  13. Well yeah - discipline nonsense is hidden from you - this is no way an attack. Why are these feral weans hidden from the likes of yourself and HMIE? Ok - students could not cope, but neither can most teachers to be honest. These kids need expelled and dealt with by people who know what they are doing. We don't. I am not a social worker - but I am expected to be that. I have not been trained to be one. I can't do it. Neither could you.

    My friend has taken a sabbatical for a year in Fife in a 'naughty person' school. He does one on ones. Takes them out. Reward and sanction. I deal with classes of 8, 12 and 16 of complete nutters - who should not be in school in the first place - but because of this cities non-exclusion policy, I live in hell everday.

    It is nonsense - this is not teaching - it is crowd control and violence - and I was not trained for this.
     
  14. Its not a question of being scared. No one has anything to be scared of these words are being used because that is how these teachers are genuinely feeling and really they shouldn't be apologetic about being honest, regardless of real name or blog name.
    To be honest I don't think the majority of good kids are ignored. Kids nowadays are not slow in coming forward and the really quiet ones ( love them) tend to come for supported study after school, well that's what happens in my school.

    Discipline or lack of is a problem and will continue to be a problem until it is dealt with at grass roots, i.e parents, if I had a pound every time I was told at parents night that "wee maggie is oot of control a dinnae know wit ta dae wi her" I would have retired by now. Really if the parents can't discipline their own child why should that duty fall on me? I have even less sanctions than them. If that task is going to be left at my door then the govt, and policy makers had better get their act together. Its time for tough love, not negotiating. Class sizes and lack of time are factors- This isn't lazy thinking its reality
     
  15. I have 4 feral boys in S2 - the school cannot handle them, and neither can I . They just don't care. One of them was excluded 6 times in S1.
    The school, although not admitting it, will just wait till they turn 16 and boot them out. there is no education going on here -
    The system , the school, the rubbish parents, the teachers, the government, is letting these kids down. That's reality!
     

  16. I agree and we are seeing more and more of these kids because of budget cuts to (or the closing down altogether of) specialist units.
     
  17. Yip - we need the specialist units back. Unfortunately the accountants now run our world. My school loses a kid, it loses x amount of pounds. And the amount of severly damaged kids that could be removed to a special unit would basically shut the school. There lies the problem. Our brave, new, shiny Scottish Education System is the emporer's new clothes. It is driving teachers away from the profession or abroad, there are no jobs, the kids are getting a really bad deal, and there is no money left.
    And because of all this, and more, discipline has gone to heck...who would be a teacher???
     
  18. RaymondSoltysek

    RaymondSoltysek New commenter

    It may not be an attack, but it is inaccurate. I could describe many occasions when I have seen severe indiscipline during students' lessons, including verbal attacks on myself as the tutor, but won't because I would break confidentiality.
    If you are going to make claims to know my job better than I do, I suggest you find some means of substantiating your claims. Otherwise, please try to display some professional courtesy.
    Now - would you like to return to some semblance of a civilized debate, or do you wish to continue to tell me how inadequate my knowledge of the current behaviour situation in schools is?
     
  19. OK - I say we need, for societies sake, to repoen the special units, and get properly trained staff who are equipped to deal with this nonsense. It is not a case of not being able to afford it. What we cannot afford is to lose these kids to an inadequate and failing system
    We have no sinbin, and the miscreants are not afraid of anything. They want to be excluded. It's a badge of honour. We have to try and contain this nonsense in our classrooms.
     
  20. You'll remember some years ago when Behaviour Support was introduced into schools. I imagine the process went something like this: the government noticed that a lot of pupils were being excluded from schools, and decided this must end; they therefore gave a sum of money to LAs and told them to use it to reduce exclusions; the LAs then gave the money to schools, and told them to use it to reduce exclusions; the schools then used the money to appoint a head of behaviour support, responsible for reducing exclusions. However, behaviour support is a bloody awful job, as you're working with problem kids all the time. Therefore, the only person likely to apply for such a job is one absolutely desperate to get out of the classroom. The most common cause of such desperation is the fact that said person is, in the vernacular, a rammy-merchant (trans. their classes lack the requisite degree of order). Ultimately, then, we end up with someone useless at behaviour in charge of behaviour. But the school has been told to reduce exclusions, so it does so. The government hails the scheme as a big success. The only fly in the ointment is that behaviour in schools is even worse than it was before.
     

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