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Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by segbog, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. So why do I put up with hell everday, as do my fellow teachers, while inexperienced SMT come up with more amazing behavioural ideas? You are talking rubbish. SMT in contol, helping me teach, taking the nutters out of the class and allowing the good kids to learn. What is wrong with that?
  2. I believe that is the way it is suppossed to work in the real world. Not mine...I have been in schools where this is the case, and it is wonderful. Not now. SMT do your jobs. That is why you are paid a good deal more than us 'teachers' or crowd control monitors.
  3. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    'Where do you suggest these pupils go?'

    Anywhere rather than remain in the classroom preventing the teacher from doing their job and preventing other pupils from getting the most from their education. In a Secondary school at any one time there will be quite a few staff who could supervise offenders. The main problem is getting some of these to actually do the job. E.g. Learning Support staff, Guidance, Behaviour management staff, Staff on non-contact, SMT's - take your pick. Any of these. Of course some of these will have excuses ready for why they should not do this. Ever seen Learning Support Staff doing 'please takes'?? Set up a time-out system, but make it involve all teaching staff and be a universal system rather than Faculty A does this while Faculty B does that etc. Schools that allow different Faculties or Departments to have different ways of dealing with bad behaviour leave themselves wide open to charges of inconsistency and unfairness which will be exploited by whoever, including SMT's ( you know the ones who like to promote their favourites - Faculty A does this, why don't you try in Faculty B etc etc).

    'What should the consequences be?'

    I can't believe I am writing this. It depends on the offence - obviously. Use your imagination. How about removing the offender from that class for x (you decide) lessons. But don't do anything that penalises the teacher. Don't use detention for example. The only people who like detention are SMT's because it penalises (and therefore indirectly blames) the class teacher as well as the offender and of course the teacher must have done something wrong to cause the pupil to behave badly ...

    Again none of this would be necessary if SMT's actually did their jobs properly. They should be visiting classes every period of every day, targeting the 'disruptives' and stopping them in their tracks, rather than being in meetings for most of the day. As long as potential offenders can be sure that only one pair of eyes is going to be on them in class they will continue to offend.
  4. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    Just read post 74. I agree totally and you have provided the evidence.
  5. Exactly...
  6. Cheesy, there is a big difference between pointing out that some SMT don't or can't deal with poor behaviour and suggesting that we shouldn't expect them to! I'm sorry if I expressed that a little too forcefully - it genuinely makes me angry that we would have such low expectations of our SMT.
  7. I just said that they are less experienced teadchers, which they tend to be. Those aiming for management tend to reach PT quickly, and from there to SMT as quickly.
    I'm a pragmatist. SMT have the theoretical knowledge, the class teacher has the practical knowledge. I'd take practical advice from an experienced teacher over theoretical advice from an SMT any day. Whenever there's a problem, I'm not looking for blame or expectations from teacher or SMT, I'm looking for solutions for the class thats in front of me. I don't really care where the solution comes from as long as it improves the childrens experience.
  8. cobalt54

    cobalt54 New commenter

    You speak much wisdom; so much in fact that I fear your days in teaching are numbered.
    First of all lets stop this handwringing over SMTs . They chose to take on what is laughably called additional responsibilty so in my book they are fair game to the clasroom teacher. They are being paid more to do less. So no tears please. If their powers are limited did they complain about this when they played the part of a sucking dove during the promotion interview?
    Of course not. More likely they dazzled the hapless interview panel with a raft of imaginative measures which they would implement as part of their remit if appointed. The problem is, having been appointed, their measures are as useful as a chocolate teapot: which they themselves knew when they perjured themselves into the job.
    The whole concept of discipline is **** over elbow anyhow. The classroom teacher for me is the final arbiter of what is considered reasonable behaviour in his/her class; same as a judge or a surgeon or a football manager. Therefore any discipline problems should not be passed UP to the SMT (who doubtless are immersed in the finer points of CFE anyhow) but DOWN to janitorial level. A good ex-army two fisted janitor should be the first port of call, in order to remove any miscreants from the classroom. Then, and only then, does the discussion about how to re-integrate these pupils begin. THEN, AND ONLY THEN.
    Can you imagine a surgeon in the operating theatre arguing the toss with a stroppy nurse;or a judge struggling with catcalls from the public bench? No chance. First order is maintained; then and only then, the debate begins.
    Anything less is anti-education. As James Joyce wearily acknowledged, civilisation rests at the end of a policeman's truncheon. Of course we wish it was different; and we ,as teachers, will I am sure do everything in our powres to move civilisation forward a few notches in our lifetime. But the brute fact remains: no order: no education.
  9. cobalt54

    cobalt54 New commenter

    I was actually in agreement with gnulinux, and my comment about days being numbered in education was an acknowledgment that one fine day there might come a straw which breaks the camel's back and leads to gnulinux leaving the profession.
    Airy, I'm not sure if as a classroom teacher I should be the final arbiter of who is allowed into my classroom or not; I accept there may be times that the classroom teacher is looking at a problem from a very specific viewpoint and that he/she must be prepared to entertain the concept of compromise. But in the short term yes, otherwise the whole system is undermined.
    Students are quick enough to spot when there is a gap between SMT/Guidance and the classroom teacher, and they would not be human if they did not seek to exploit this when called to account. Therefore it is important that there is some sort of recognised code of conduct in a school which can be enforced without fear or favour. The weaker SMTs I have encountered are usually very quick to turn a simple disciplinary problem into a broader educational issue, the better to avoid dealing with the isue at stake.
  10. I hope it's helping. If you can establish a good ethic with the rest of the class it might help the disruptive ones to comply when they come back in. My post above was really an "ideal world" school - I think you have to ensure those who want to learn get the opportunity to do so and if that's at the cost of those who choose to behave badly then, while not ideal, it's the best of a bad situation.
  11. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    I take it there isn't a staffed cooler/isolation/exclusion room organised in this school? Have they even got a system of whole school, timetabled cooler periods where you can send a disruptive pupil into a designated classroom, where the teacher is teaching a different year group and subject and has a good class?
    What about monitoring cards?
    Are you writing referrals? If the school use Seemis, for example, to create and manage referrals it will really make you feel a lot less isolated to do some nosey-ing around - see what other teachers in the school are writing about these pupils. This can be informative and empowering.

  12. No sinbin / cooler. There really is no coherant discipline policy in the school. I write referrals and nothing happens really. There is a flurry of activity, and then we are back in the same position the next week, Just a papertrail to cover backs. Ridiculous.

    So as I say, if they don't want to work in my class, there's the door. There is the staff base. You can sit in there and draw pictures all day if you want. I'm taking care of my duty of care responsibilities, and I am educating the ones that want to learn. It is not CfE, or inclusion, or any other made up nonsense. What it is is my solution to a situation which is destroying the good kid's education.
  13. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    How do other members of staff feel about this and what are they doing with the problem pupils?
    Are you on a permanent or fixed temp?

  14. I have the honour of having all the "problem" classes - everyday is a joy to behold.
    I am in a unique position - it's so much fun.
    The strong teachers do exactly what I am doing - I have adopted this approach as it seems to be the only way to get through the day.
  15. Hey segbog, I take it your new avatar is indicative of yourself when you're tossing the bammers out of your class room? ;)
    I have taught in five different schools across Glasgow. Three of them were well-organised and the kids were, by and large, pleasant and respectful and willing to work. In two of them the behaviour of the kids in all of my classes was extremely challenging, with four or five absolute mental cases in every class determined to start a rammy. I know what it is like to try to build a rapport with a class, to really knock my pan in trying all manner of funky behaviour management strategies, and to ultimately have it all come to nothing. The bams don't respond to my efforts, they are not dealt with properly by the powers that be, and they return to my class, day after day, shouting out inappropriate comments, doing next to no work, distracting other pupils and generally severely disrupting my ability to present fun and engaging lesson for the 80% of the kids who want to work.
    I am extremely lucky in that I am now in another well-organised school, with a sane and supportive PT who deals with the bams in a manner that is conducive to the wellbeing of the kids who are well-behaved, and I come into school in the morning looking forward to the day ahead. But some schools are just poorly-organised, and class room teachers are fighting a losing battle, with classes full of nutters who constantly disrupt lessons, and absolutely nothing is done about it. In one school that I was in I had a kid who I had tried my best with. I had tried appealing to his better nature by trying to chat to him about his hobbies and interests (those that didn't involve getting wasted and slashing people). I tried choosing texts that I thought would appeal to him. I tried rewards. I tried punishments. I tried quiet wee one-on-one chats with him at the end of lessons. I tried it all, but to no avail. He was still regularly disruptive: constantly shouting across the classroom, swearing, eating in class, being lippy and doing next to no work. I had written various pastoral care and behaviour referrals regarding his antics, and the response was always the same: the little yellow referral slip would be returned to me in my pigeon hole some weeks later, with the asinine response: "Keep me informed".
    So then one day things came to a head. The kid was, as usual, doing abolutely zero work. I warned him a few times that he had better get some work done (I couldn't also mention that there would be consequences for his not getting anything done, because I knew that there certainly wouldn't be!). On the third time of asking him to do some work he turned round and, looking me in the eye, snarled: "Get tae **** ya stupid ****". The PT came in and removed him from the class. I wrote a referral. A couple of days later, the yellow referral slip return landed in my pigeon hole: "Keep me informed".
    I genuinely believe that some teachers really do have little to no understanding of the absolute break-down in rules and regulations that has occurred in some Glasgow schools. A significant minority are absolute hell-holes, with deeply miserable teachers unable to engage with anything that even approaches meaningful teaching and learning, so broken is the system under which they are operating. And so, whilst for some of us segbog's anti-CfE, old-school demeanour might seem to be totally overboard and a sign of his failing to embrace new strategies which would help him to overcome his difficulties, my bet is that he works in the kind of school that I have just decsribed, where that sort of stuff just does not work. Some of these schools are in need of an undercover Panorama investigation.
  16. Don't get me wrong. I have worked in schools where CfE, etc, seem to work a treat, and I have adopted the strategies and outcomes. But in my current place, it is a joke. SMT (well most of them) have convinced themselves that everything is wonderful.
    I agree with this 100% - you would really not believe what goes down here...I'm still stunned by what I see here everyday!!!

    Still - it's Friday - enjoy your weekend folks...
  17. kibosh

    kibosh Star commenter

    Good post, Mr. Kamikaze [​IMG]
  18. CfE is a curriculum. Insisting on reasonable (and I'm not even saying "good") behaviour isn't anti-CfE and I've yet to see what's inclusive about excluding a whole class from getting a decent education just so that a few other can be physically included in the classroom.
  19. Some very sensible here. [​IMG]
  20. I do love the fact that if a class is bonkers it is your fault - nothing to do with SMT and taking over from 9 odd teachers...

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