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Different PPA for different teachers

Discussion in 'Primary' started by charrbell, Sep 26, 2018.

  1. charrbell

    charrbell New commenter

    Hi all,

    I've recently been told that PPA will be changing at my school and wanted some advice.

    Currently, we have 2.5 hours of PPA each week. Years 5 and 6 have now been told they can have 3.5 hours of PPA each week whilst the other teachers will remain on 2.5 hours.

    We have been told that this is due to the fact they have extra leadership responsibilities. However, it is my understanding they should be given extra management time then (not PPA) and this should be applied to ALL teachers with leadership responsibilities, not just 2 as they have the same responsibilities at our school. Additionally 2 of those teachers do not have any leadership responsibilities.

    Can anyone give me any information about this? Has this happened at different schools? Are there any guidelines on the matter?

  2. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I suppose, if it bothers you very much, you could always ask to move to year 6 next year...

    I agree that time given for leadership should be called 'leadership time'. However many schools say PPA, when they mean any non-contact time.

    No idea if it is fair or not in your school, but an hour extra PPA a week still wouldn't have me moving back to year 6!
    kennykoalabear likes this.
  3. charrbell

    charrbell New commenter

    Taking my school out of the equation, I'm more interested in knowing whether this has happened in other schools. Have people had it before where different teachers get different amounts of PPA time although they work the same hours and have the same responsibilities?
  4. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    seems very unusual in my experience. Although last year, Year 5 ended up with all afternoon ppa and Yr 6 got all mornings which probably equates to about the same. This year it has been put right.
    charrbell likes this.
  5. becky70

    becky70 Occasional commenter

    Not at my school. Everyone gets the same PPA. Time for any management responsibilities is separate.
    charrbell likes this.
  6. BTBAM

    BTBAM New commenter

    Year 6 teachers DO have a very different experience, and quite frankly should get more time/money than Year 3 and 4 teachers. Maybe Year 5 too if you're at a school where Year 5 is still Year 6. I have seen schools where Year 6 teachers get what is called 'extra PPA' which is an extra afternoon/morning out of class each week. Some have two teachers in their class for one or two days a week or so too.

    You should move to Year 6 and enjoy this awesome extra hour that these teachers get... or more likely, will be lost every week due to being sent for as one of the year 6s decided to throw a chair through a window, or the local advisor is in to work with them on maths interventions etc etc.
  7. abacus1982

    abacus1982 Established commenter

    So should EYFS teachers get paid the least and Year 13 the most by this rationale?

    If they have leadership responsibilities or specific things which need to be done then nothing wrong with that. If it's an extra hour to mark books then that's wrong. Year 5/6 has much more marking that's true but lessons take far less preparation than younger children's do and the children are also far more independent so lessons are less taxing. But that is just my opinion and experience.
  8. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    No!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
    (Can you tell I moved to EYFS this year?)
    I agree.
    I LOVE having no marking, but am working way more hours this year than for any of my career! AND the actual day in class is far more exhausting!

    Life isn't always fair, but as long as you can do your job and you see it as preferable to year 6 teaching, then go with it.
  9. voiceoftruthandwisdom526

    voiceoftruthandwisdom526 New commenter

    As a Year 6 teacher, I don't think I should be paid more or given more PPA time than teachers in other year groups. Paying people based on the year they teach is a recipe for disaster! Although I do agree that PPA is used by many as an umbrella term for any time they aren't teaching.

    However, I disagree that lessons take less preparation and are less taxing - agreed, I don't have the same demands in my lessons that an EYFS or KS1 teacher will have, and I know that your lessons require particular things that mine don't. However, in my classroom I still have to have engaging lessons, which can be insanely difficult given that I have to make sure the entire class can add, subtract, multiply and divide - some of them are super at it, many are familiar but make mistakes and errors that need correcting, and more than enough have almost no clue! So actually, I spend enough of my lesson time racing around my classroom, giving just as much energy as I know the Year 1 or Reception teachers in my school do. Not to mention having to have a million things to do to make sure that all children are challenged.

    Having said that, I also know that teachers lower down the school have their own marking woes: different volume, but I'm relieved that (most of the time) I don't have the difficulty of deciphering what a child has attempted to sound out!

    Like you, I can only judge by my experience. In the long run, though, teaching is swings and roundabouts, so I'm all for equality of pay and non-contact time!
    charrbell and efm like this.
  10. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    Are you a Year 6 teacher by any chance? More money than Year 3? Don’t think so. Get over yourself.
  11. 0903761

    0903761 New commenter

    Year 6 is a far more difficult year group with far more pressure on that year 3. This coming from someone who has done both. Going back into year 3 now would be a walk in the park after a few years in 5 and 6
    niki1984 likes this.
  12. modgepodge

    modgepodge Established commenter

    To me, year 3-5 are all equal but y6 in a state school is harder because of the writing assessment. The year I taught y6 I attended 2hour moderations at the LA half termly, Extra training on the writing assessment, the pressure to have volume of writing in their books was huge which all leads to more marking. Not to mention mock SATs twice in the year, leading to 180 papers for each teacher to mark each time. Not saying y6 teachers deserve more pay, I agree the pressures a different to lower down the school, but an extra hour of PPA seems fair to me. I taught y4 in the same school before y6 so can directly compare and I do think Y6 has more pressure and longer hours.
    lardylegs likes this.
  13. efm

    efm New commenter

    Don't have time for PPA when the questions I was asked in maths the other day ranged from 'Do I add 5+8 or 8+5?' and, 'Are we learning how to expand brackets this year?' !!!! (Obviously I take my PPA and would take more if offered )
  14. abacus1982

    abacus1982 Established commenter

    Personally I think a mistake is made when the 'pressure' to get the writing up to scratch and in books is left until Y6. Same as leaving arithmetic, working under timed conditions etc to Y6. I'm not saying this is the case for anyone who commented here but I know it can be. Get it right in Y3-5 and then it is far easier in Y6. We are really trying to get the arithmetic, spelling and grammar sorted in 3-5 at the moment so that there is less cramming in Y6. However I do know and agree the pressure in Y6 is a lot which is why it shouldn't always be left to the same teacher to be in there year after year.

    I would have no problem with my Y6 teacher coming to me when they've had a load of tests to mark and asking for some extra time to get them marked and I'd cover the class for them. I'd also do the same for other teachers if they came to me with heavy workload.
  15. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I agree, but it isn't 'more work' and so shouldn't come with extra time.

    Try EYFS for more pressure and more time needed!
  16. sarahlouxx

    sarahlouxx New commenter

    Lol. Disagree completely!
  17. caterpillartobutterfly

    caterpillartobutterfly Star commenter

    I have now taught all of nursery to year 13.
    Every year I have been the teacher most deserving of extra PPA because I've always worked the hardest and had the most to do.
    It's true.

    Of course everyone doing the same job should get the same PPA. But life is unfair and sometimes it isn't worth the fight and sometimes it is.
    squashball and vannie like this.
  18. sunshineneeded

    sunshineneeded Star commenter

    At our school, everyone gets either a morning or an afternoon PPA - obviously, we all want a morning as it's longer! People with management time usually get a whole day, either weekly or fortnightly, and tend to refer to the whole time as PPA - so everything gets slightly blurred. But it usually works OK for us.

    Having worked from nursery to Year 6, every year group has different pressures and stress … and a multitude of different tasks which teachers will attempt to do in PPA. Of course nursery don't have the same level of marking and lesson prep as Year 6, but they have a lot more resources to organise and up to 60 children to assess. Swings and roundabouts and everyone should have the same PPA.
  19. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    At our school all PPA is in the afternoons. To make up for this we are all given an extra PPA every half term. This is added to the usual PPA so we effectively get a whole day per half term. In addition we can bid for management time for our subject responsibilities, before delivering INSET or to plan a whole school event etc. This works well.
    I agree with the PP about moving away from the high stakes ‘Y6 will fix it’ model. Everyone is expected to progress their children so that Y6 doesn’t get left with an impossible task. We are observed, books are scrutinised, data analysed, we do boosters etc all to this end. As the Y3 teacher it is my responsibility to ensure progress from Y2 to Y3. Y4 will soon have the time table test to contend with. Y5 is the beginning of Y6 etc ... it’s all stressful and we all work hard.
    charrbell, squashball, Lalad and 2 others like this.
  20. welshmercury

    welshmercury New commenter

    I think you are justified to ask SLT why and is it equitable. It sounds like you are in more than a single form entry. But if you don't want to stick your head above the parapet then you will just have to grin and bear it sadly. You should be given a break down of your directed hours.

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