1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi Guest, welcome to the TES Community!

    Connect with like-minded education professionals and have your say on the issues that matter to you.

    Don't forget to look at the how to guide.

    Dismiss Notice

Dad wins high court term-time holiday case

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Godmeister, May 13, 2016.

  1. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    I was not trying to be amusing..so that's hardly a failure.
    Evidence...where I have made a claim, I have provided it..that's what the quotes are.
    As for supporting argument...what do you think all the words in my replies are? Have you read them?
  2. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    And so we get to the end..where you try to paint me as a troll, another attempt to discredit me rather than actually defend your claims.

    I am the one that is asking for a rational debate, one where claims or opinions are supported.
    You are the one that presents your opinion as if it were fact and fails to engage in a rational debate.

    I am guilty of responding in like tone when you resorted to abuse...tell you what, why don't we drop the personal attacks and get to the point...I'm game if you are.
  3. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    Of course you can challenge the rules....that is not denied by anyone on here, it was somebody successfully challenging the rules that triggered this thread.
    By challenging the rules, are you not accepting that somebody else made those rules and had the right to do so? This was the point that was made by another poster, you just said that he was wrong without explanation or clarification..as if your opinion was enough authority.

    See, you can expand on your answers and turn it from opinion into debate.

    That's right I didn't..I've been sussed. That's why I didn't write post #101.
    Oh, hang on a minute....
  4. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    This may help.

    No need for thanks.

    To be fair I had missed post 101. This is understandable as I had to wade through pages of you attempting to do nothing other than argue for the sake of argue. Ironic as I agree with the view you provide there. Albeit an opinion with no more evidence than those opinions you have since expended much effort demanding evidence for!

  5. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    Pointing out the inadequacies of your posts does not count as trolling.
    You stated, implicitly or otherwise, that if a pupil made 'insufficient progress' with 90% attendance then it had to be because of inadequate teaching. No other explanation was considered or accepted.

    In the context of this thread, disputing that is very relevant. If you read and understood my post #101 you would understand that. The disengagement/disaffection of a pupil and/or their parents is highly likely to be a factor to be considered, not just the quality of teaching.

    That's ok, none is offered.
    That you continue to attack me rather than engage on a substantive point just highlights the weakness of your position. Why not explain or defend your point instead of just calling me a troll because I dispute it? Is it really the strongest argument that you have?

    Not really very understandable as it was posted before any conversation between ourselves.
    If you read the thread, as you repeatedly advised me to do, you would have already read it without any 'wading'.

    As explained above..just because I am arguing with you, it doesn't mean that I am doing it solely for the sake of arguing. I am doing it because I think you are wrong, I am doing it because you made claims that you do not or cannot support, I am doing it because you chose to use sarcasm and abuse rather than engage in a reasoned debate.
    Is it really so difficult to believe that somebody arguing against you could be doing so because they disagree?
    Are you really so conceited that you think that everyone must think like you, so any opposition is driven by a desire to troll?

    And you say that I cannot read or understand!
    I have not demanded evidence, I have demanded evidence or reasoned argument.
    Either is acceptable in a debate; evidence to support factual claims, reasoned argument to support opinion. If you go back to #101 and read it without blinkers, you will see that It does contain reasoning that leads to my conclusion.

    Argue that my reasoning is illogical or that it is insufficient to support my conclusion if you like...but if you just state that there is none, you will be wrong and I will point it out.
  6. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    You are trolling.

    If you argue you are not, you will be wrong and I will not point it out. Feeding time is over.
  7. SteveWoodhouse

    SteveWoodhouse Occasional commenter

    Shall we be honest about what all this is all about.

    The government looked at attendance figures and either found they were not as good as they should be, or were at least a convenient political football. Either way, they needed to show improvement.

    92% of absences are nothing to do with term time holidays. But you can't fine parents for their children being sick, and it's virtually impossible to prove a child was well.

    Look at the facts. We all know there's a hard core of parents who will authorise absences whenever they feel like it, and yet we've only seen a handful of parents fined for 'illness'. On the other hand, you can get an almost 100% success rate fining for term time holidays.

    Monitoring and fining for persistent absence is complex, expensive and time consuming. Sending a letter confirming a fine for any parent saying they're taking a child on holiday is relatively simple, cheap and quick. You don't have to prove anything other than what it says in the letter. Meanwhile, parents are fearful that, if they say a child is sick when they're really in Spain, something will come out. Photos on Facebook, child comes back from flu with a tan, child tells one of his/her mates, and so on.

    And that's why they're targeting the 8% rather than the 92%.
  8. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    And you purport that the only reason for a pupil making 'insufficient progress' (an amount of progress that you refuse to define) when they have 90% attendance is poor teaching, 'compostuous teaching' was the phrase that you used.

    I have suggested that it may be a little more complicated than that, disengagement and disaffection may have their parts to play.

    I have suggested that fining, or otherwise trying to discourage, parents over term time holidays is a red herring. An incompetent distraction from the DfE that risks us taking our eye off the ball of what really contributes to underperformance, or is a dishonest distraction, a smokescreen to hide the same thing.

    That you would rather dismiss this by categorising it as trolling, rather than furthering the debate by supporting/reasoning/defending your claim may stroke some part of your ego....but it 'doth butter no parsnips'.
  9. SteveWoodhouse

    SteveWoodhouse Occasional commenter

    Instead of complaining and apportioning blame, how about trying to find a solution.

    In Germany they stagger holiday times between states so that not everyone is on holiday at once.

    We've also had discussion over the years of moving holidays around and spreading them out a little more.

    It should be fairly easy to come up with a solution so that the holiday season is spread throughout June, July, August, perhaps the first half of September.

    I'm not sure it would work (I am sure there are people who'd dismiss it and complain without even thinking about it - that's par for the course), but it should be worth looking at.
  10. SteveWoodhouse

    SteveWoodhouse Occasional commenter

  11. hatemarking

    hatemarking New commenter

    So when teachers are allowed to take holiday in term time because it is too expensive in the holidays (making up time in school holiday time). How many parents would be up in arms? If they can do it why can't we?
  12. blazer

    blazer Star commenter

    We have had several kids off 'sick' for 2 weeks and when they return they have amazing sun tans!
  13. sun seeker

    sun seeker New commenter

    Yes one of our came back with not only a tan but a big pink braid in her hair. The parent had phoned her in sick before the holiday - probably from the airport. Then the grandparent phoned a few days later to say she was still ill! However when the child was asked she said they had been on an aeroplane to Majorca.( Bless she was only 6).
    Is it me or just my school but since they introduced this £60 fine the number of parents taking their children out has actually risen. I think it's because the actual fine is so small they really are not bothered. whereas before the threat was an unknown but potentially up to £2000 fine so they didn't dare risk it.
  14. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

    It's £60 per child per parent.

    Two parents, three kids, £360.
  15. Kamit

    Kamit New commenter

    I don't think expense is the main reason. Teachers get a lot of holiday compared to most jobs.

    My wife works at a hospital, she is in a team of 5 all of whom have school age children. There needs to be 4 of them at work at all time which basically means they can't all have time off in the summer holidays. They each have 5 weeks leave per year to use.

    So we either in some years we don't have a family holiday or we go in term time. It hasn't been an issue so far as our oldest has only just started school but it will be an issue in the next year or two. Both my wife and I have very happy memories of family holidays. I'm not going to deny my children from family holidays because other people think that the education system is so broken it can't cope with missing a weeks worth of lessons.
    loodle1 and hammie like this.
  16. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    not sure teachers are best placed to comment on this issue, especially as some just see it as a chance to point score off each other in pedantic off topic conversations.
    Should we ban some children from ever having a family holiday at all? That is what we effectively do if we ban term time holidays. The government should be very careful before they introduce a hasty and ill conceived law which may well be challenged under human rights legislation.
  17. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    I don't have a problem with it in principle, but the difficulty comes when different schools have different holidays and your children are at those different schools. Of course, that is already the case with some academy schools (and parents have been fined because of this), but it hasn't solved the problem.
  18. SteveWoodhouse

    SteveWoodhouse Occasional commenter

    In Germany this isn't split by education authority, but by state.

    The equivalent over here would be splitting the UK into Scotland, Yorkshire, Wales, the South West and so on. Large regions, as opposed to small areas.

    There will be very few families indeed with kids in more than one region, and allowances could be made for the handful who are.
  19. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Lots of children travel over county borders - for example to access selective education. Not sure staggering holiday dates by county would work, tbh.
  20. SteveKindle

    SteveKindle Occasional commenter

    I think the post said that it would work by splitting the UK into regions, not counties.

    The number of families with children in different schools in different regions will be tiny.

    Also, their existence doesn't mean the system wouldn't work. It appears to work in Germany, and I'm sure they'll have a similar number to us in the same situation.

    Here's the question. Is there anything that's different enough between Germany and the UK that would make a system which works for them not work for us?

    It may be that the system wouldn't work, but perhaps it needs looking at. Nothing wrong with thinking about things.

    It wouldn't solve all of the problems, though. There are still instances where parents simply can't take holidays from work when their children have holidays from school. People keep saying that foreign holidays are not a right, but I doubt too many would swap places with a person who could never take a holiday with their children while they were of school age.

Share This Page