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Dad wins high court term-time holiday case

Discussion in 'Education news' started by Godmeister, May 13, 2016.

  1. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    The whole thing is a mess of flawed logic and, potentially,dishonesty.
    The Dfe know that there is a correlation between attendance and performance.
    Either through incompetency (they think that correlation implies causality) or dishonesty (they know that it doesn't but don't care) they enforce their flawed view through the use of fines/punishment.

    I'm not surprised that disengaged pupils or disaffected parents lead to poor attendance and to academic underperformance, is anybody surprised?

    But that does not mean the underperfomance was caused by the poor attendance, while the DfE suffer from 'target fixation' on attendance figures, we are all distracted from the true issue..disengagement and disaffection.
    Whether this is deliberate obfuscation or breathtaking incompetence...well I suppose that depends on your view of the DfE and their political masters.
     
  2. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    I've never found a pupil missing a chunk disruptive to their learning as it is easy to identify what exactly has been missed. On the other hand, regularly arriving late or missing odd days one a fortnight or so is very disruptive for everyone in the class.
    And for the record, if we were not allowed to have holidays during term time when I was younger I would never have had a family holiday at all. And living in a Navy City, there are many forces children who would never see their forces' parent at all if not allowed time off during term time.
     
  3. hammie

    hammie Lead commenter

    and...
    all fixed penalty tickets should now be refunded much as speeding tickets from mis-aligned speeding cameras are.
     
  4. juliojulio

    juliojulio New commenter

    I just think kids need to learn the discipline of turning up to school/work every day. I see the results every day of what happens when kids don't learn this and end up failing to adapt to the world of work.
    You may worry about laying down a definition of what is and is not educational, but I don't. After all, we do it every day, teaching Shakespeare not Towie, biology not fantasy cures. Nothing wrong with escapist fantasy entertainment - I might like to go to Disneyland myself one day - but not if it teaches kids that this is more important than fulfilling their obligations to attend school.
     
    wanet likes this.
  5. juliojulio

    juliojulio New commenter

    I just think kids need to learn the discipline of turning up to school/work every day. I see the results every day of what happens when kids don't learn this and end up failing to adapt to the world of work.You may worry about laying down a definition of what is and is not educational, but I don't. After all, we do it every day, teaching Shakespeare not Towie, biology not fantasy cures. Nothing wrong with escapist fantasy entertainment - I might like to go to Disneyland myself one day - but not if it teaches kids that this is more important than fulfilling their obligations to attend school.
     
  6. drek

    drek Star commenter

    I agree with limited state interference. When I vote it is for a politician to make certain decisions about public spending because of their sharp business acumen or to ensure the justice system does not become a personal playground for one's ideals a la gove and his new rights for 'prisoners' agenda. It is never for politicians to become a moral compass for the lay person.

    They choose to live their lives a certain way because they have the income to do so. They cannot enforce it on others the way they are doing now for the sole purpose of enlarging their own personal incomes.

    It is distasteful.

    Just read an article about Gove wanting to release prisoners early and demanding they be addressed as Mr or Miss..... I suppose they can now complain and performance manage prison guards this way?
     
  7. PizzoCalabro

    PizzoCalabro Established commenter

    The travel companies will be rubbing their hands with glee now as demand will increase for June & July particularly, but also Feb/March for skiing... So prices will rise then too...
     
  8. mrajlong

    mrajlong Senior commenter

    I seem to be in the minority here. 90% attendance means missing 1 day of school in every 10 over the school year. That equates to almost 4 weeks of school per year. Multiply this by the 11 ish years a child is in school for and that's more than an entire year of school missed through absence. Some of this, of course, will be through genuine illness. In my experience when a child misses even a week of school the damage can be quite severe with regards the child feeling left behind - remember coming back into school when a supply has been in your class? It may not be permanent damage, but is damage nevertheless. They may have missed key lessons or even entire topics. I completely sympathise with the cost of holidays in the school holidays, we can only afford one every 3 years because of it, but I am worried about the message this is sending to some parents. Savvy parents will now book holidays in school term time EVERY year and make sure their child's attendance doesn't dip below 90%. Some parents will of course help their child catch up and inject some education to this holiday, but the vast majority will not. I have visions of the half empty classrooms one or two weeks before Xmas, Easter and Summer holidays or potentially never having a full class due to at least one child being on holiday. However, I will still be held 100% accountable for the progress that child has made, despite their 90% attendance. A child that misses 10% of the school year will surely make 10% less progress. All the other members of staff at my school share this view. There must be others out there...hello?
     
    wanet likes this.
  9. harsh-but-fair

    harsh-but-fair Star commenter

    That seems very simplistic.
     
  10. hairremover

    hairremover New commenter

    CHOP
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  11. Kamit

    Kamit New commenter

    If you are working in a data driven environment, where you are held accountable for the progress of each student, then surely it isn't difficult to adjust this model to take account of the pupils attendance?
     
  12. slingshotsally

    slingshotsally Star commenter

    Juliojulio,

    When I look back at my childhood, I cannot recall a single individual classroom. I can't recall the "wow" moment when I learnt Latin declensions, or titration, or sweating over quadratic equations, hurdling technique, sitting exams, mastering Shakespeare or diciphering Chaucer.

    I did do these, but they were minor distractions from life.

    A great childhood is more than drudgery, chained to a desk at the behest of fickle fortune and idiots such as Nicky Morgan or Govidiot.

    Life is long enough to allow a minor but joyful detour to places other that at school.

    SSS
     
    hammie, Anonymity and Kamit like this.
  13. Kamit

    Kamit New commenter

    Spot on. Memories of school are generally focused around funny (or upsetting) moments and friendships. The content of lessons is gone, deleted from long term memory as soon as the exams were over. The type of "Wow, this is what I want to do with my life" or "This teacher inspired me to become what I am today, thanks Mr Thompson" cliche of teacher recruitment ads is a myth as far as I am concerned.
     
    hammie likes this.
  14. slingshotsally

    slingshotsally Star commenter

    Does your school do a Christmas, Easter or End of year performance, parent assemblies? Do children from your class regularly leave for music lessons, are children taken out for small group sessions? Are there children from your school who gave regular stays in hospital?

    I loathed Christmas, Easter, Parent and End of term Assemblies, the rehearsals for the religious assemblies lasted at least 3 weeks, children taken out at a whim, props to be painted, the Ho-hah was just ridiculous. The disruption to lessons created by these was hell. The cumulative effect of these disruptions affected the learning of many children over a number of weeks and I hated these with a passion.

    As a child at school, I recall sitting through these types of performances, sometimes I had the misfortune of having to participate in them too. They were boring then.

    They provide little in the way of education If you could edit the dross out of schooling, to leave more room for learning then I would be inclined to agree with you.


    As for absences due to health reasons, or because your family are homeless and currently living in a completely different area so you have to travel miles on buses... What can you do about those?

    This was acknowledged in my previous school, class teachers were given absence details and were expected to phone/question all absences... Even if you knew a child had been genuinely I'll.
     
  15. redlamp2

    redlamp2 Occasional commenter

    If a child has attended 90% of your lessons and still not made sufficient progress, the issue is not their attendance.

    As for your claim about 'surely making 10%' less progress, simply take a look around you. Are the kids that attend the most, the cleverest? I think not. The only correlation here is of your views to the propaganda used to justify the fines.
     
  16. labellaroma

    labellaroma Occasional commenter

    Tour operators are the real problem and the blame surely lies with them!! If they didn't charge such ridiculous prices for holidays during school holidays, then parents wouldn't have to take children out of school to go on a holiday in term time. Teachers also suffer because they have to travel during school holidays. It's about time that something was done about this to address the matter. It amounts to nothing than daylight robbery!!!
     
  17. Exit3

    Exit3 New commenter

    How dare anybody tell another parent if/when they can take their child on holiday! Far too much (and very sinister) control from the government in my opinion ... anyone else who tell another parent what to do is being controlling too. It is law that a child is educated - it is not law that a child goes to school. There are many routes to an education. We have all become brainwashed into thinking that the way it is done for most people is the way everyone should do it. I am a Teacher but I am seriously thinking of Home Ed for my daughter as I do not like what I am seeing in schools today. Too much pressure and assessment, not enough creativity, knackered teachers and large class sizes. I believe there is a much better way ... and that should be MY choice to make for my child!
     
    hammie likes this.
  18. PizzoCalabro

    PizzoCalabro Established commenter

    Mine are in an indie and we are very happy with their education. If they were little now, and had to go state, I would home ed, no question.
     
    hammie likes this.
  19. mrajlong

    mrajlong Senior commenter

    10% progress is maybe a bit over simplistic and if the climate of fear wasn't so high in education at the moment I would give any parent my blessing to take their child on holiday in term time. I agree that there is a lot of dross at end of term and that time missed is not the end of the world.
    "A child who has attended my class 90% of the time and not made progress, the issue is not their attendance" what does this mean? I can only teach a child who is there! We know that some kids will not be adversely affected by missing 4 weeks of school a year. Some will. Just my opinion and I'm not the only one who thinks this way...
     
  20. Sisyphus_rolls_again

    Sisyphus_rolls_again Established commenter

    'Sufficient' is a value judgement and as such is subject to considerable error.
    What do you suggest might be the cause of their hypothetical 'insufficient' progress?
     

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