# Counting beyond 29

Discussion in 'Primary' started by ShadowMan, Apr 21, 2012.

1. ### ShadowManNew commenter

I've got a year four child who does not know what comes after 29. She can count in 10's parrot fashion but gets stuck when you ask her to count on from numbers such as 38. She can say 39 comes next and is then floored.
I'm trying to think of some games that involve counting with numbers up to 100 but am stuck. Apart from chanting the numbers, can anyone think of some fun activities that she could do on a daily basis at home and at school?
Thanks

2. ### ShadowManNew commenter

I've got a year four child who does not know what comes after 29. She can count in 10's parrot fashion but gets stuck when you ask her to count on from numbers such as 38. She can say 39 comes next and is then floored.
I'm trying to think of some games that involve counting with numbers up to 100 but am stuck. Apart from chanting the numbers, can anyone think of some fun activities that she could do on a daily basis at home and at school?
Thanks

3. ### InkyPStar commenter

This isn't unusual so why are you so concerned? To do what you ask (other than parrot fashion) would involve the beginning of an understanding of place value which would be beyond expectations at the end of the Reception year (according to the Early Years Foundation Stage Profile). I have a few children in my Reception class who can do this but most can't.
Reciting numbers up to 100 is less important than understanding what the numbers represent and problem solving using numbers up to 10, or 20 for more able children at this age.

4. ### ShadowManNew commenter

Err...Year Four not four years old!

5. ### minnieminxNew commenter

It is unusual in year 4 isn't it? Some of my year 2 children struggle when crossing into the next tens, but most can do it.

We just do loads and loads of counting games and songs that go over. Not sure what I'd do with a year 4 child though.

6. ### ShadowManNew commenter

The BIG problem, of course, is that she is the only one. The rest of the class are all level 3/4/5. There is no way we can do counting songs etc. She's on her own.

7. ### Earl Davids wifeNew commenter

Do you have any 100 squares? Can the child have one readily available so that visualisation of the 100 square can be achieved? If playing games like snakes and ladders etc doesn't help maybe this child has a wider problem with numeracy.

8. ### languageisheartosayOccasional commenter

You could use Numicon, Cuisenaire rods or money! If she can count in 10s, use 10p coins. Then show how each one can be swapped for 10x1p. Perhaps this will make it more clear.
You do need also to check out whether she can detect the difference in the words between 13 and 30, 14 and 40 etc. by ear. I find so many children who actually do not hear the difference and I have made a resource to practise with. Until they have this sorted, it is not surprising that kids find it very irrational and can't understand the progression.
It is very interesting that a Numicon article says that children who speak languages that present the numbers in a more 'sensible' order in the name have far less difficulty than children who speak English. So languages that have the equivalent word to 10-3, 10-4 etc. are more logical than ours which sounds like 4-10, 6-10 and so on (omitting the ones like thir/three, fif/five).

9. ### clear_airNew commenter

I once taught a little Y3 boy who got stuck at the exact same place. I got some tacky back and stuck a hundred square on his desk. I tippexed out (it was a long time ago!) numbers afer thriry on another hundred square and we slowly filled it in. I can't remember when we used to do this, but it didn't take him long after seeing it visually represented on the 100square and a bit of individual attention. That was what worked for him, anyway.

10. ### languageisheartosayOccasional commenter

Sorry - this is the resource https://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6053757 and you can find my other number and counting resources via my blog at http://languageisheartosay.com

11. ### ShadowManNew commenter

Thank you for all those ideas.
I've never quite understood how children use number squares for counting on. If I want her to start on 38 and count on 7, then all she will do is point at 38, count on 7 squares and say whatever she's on. That's not helping her recognise the bridge over 40 because she won't even have to recognise those numbers. It's just a convenient way of reaching an answer - but what is it teaching her?
I want her to count out loud 38, 39, 40, 41 etc whilst counting up to seven on her fingers. She finds this impossible.

12. ### ShadowManNew commenter

Clearair - I think we will use your idea to create a number grid for snakes and ladders. Thanks.

13. ### carriecat10Occasional commenter Community helper

I support a lot of children who struggle with maths and this is quite common.
Do you know if this child knows 1 more and 1 less than any number from 0 to 50 for example? Does she understand that the next number in the sequence is adding 1 or subtracting 1 (depending if she's counting forwards or backwards)? It may be that she is just trying to remember the number names without understanding the additive structure of the number system.
If she can count in tens and can count up to ten she should be able to apply this to unknown numbers.
I would suggest activities that focus on 1 more and 1 less. You can use 100 squares, number lines or board games such as snakes and ladders to roll dice and move counters. To support understanding model using language of 1 more or 1 less etc whilst playing.
Once she has this, I would suggest using something like a bead bar to label the decade numbers and use this to count along whilst moving the beads. Having the decade numbers labelled supports her when crossing the decade numbers. These can be removed when she feels ready.
Hope that helps a bit ...
Carrie

14. ### InkyPStar commenter

Sorry I totally misread that. Ignore everything I said.

15. ### Earl Davids wifeNew commenter

Send a 100 square home and ask parents to count with her as they point to the numbers on the grid. Make sure they give the tens numbers a good 'stab with the finger' when saying them :-(
Once she's getting used to this get the parents to ask her to find number 40, number 50 etc then go on to find 41 etc.
I take it they would be supportive? Have they never counted with her?

16. ### ShadowManNew commenter

Thank you everyone.

17. ### Earl Davids wifeNew commenter

Send home a load of small things (beads) get the parents to put out a large handful and ask the child how many she thinks there are. Then count then one by one.

I take it that she has a problem with knowing which numbers follow 49 - a problem with counting?
If so that's where I'd start.

18. ### minnieminxNew commenter

Not sure if I'd use a hundred square while she is stuck at 29. Maybe a number track to 50 to start with and once that counting is sorted and fluent move on to a hundred square.

19. ### clear_airNew commenter

I'm trying to think what exactly I did, but I didn't present him with all of the numbers up to 100 - think I just used the square to show him a visual way that numbers work, and to help him know which '10 number' came next. I probably did it when I heard him read ( he was one of my regular readers too). I'm not sure that I'd send counting home as homework - perhaps as this little child has number problems, the family do too. Is it likely that she will get the input from home that she hasn't so far? (possibly not very). Thinking about it, I think I got him to the next ten, and hen the next and next over a period of time. He was a sweet little boy, that one.