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Consevative party Islamophobia

Discussion in 'Personal' started by vinnie24, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    Polling has revealed that those that voted Conservative in 2017 are among the most likely to hold anti-muslim feelings.

    Indeed many Tory MP's ,councillors and members make islamophobic comments yet are not disciplined in any way because of it.

    Why aren't the Tories doing more to eradicate this religious hatred from their ranks and why are they not held to the same scrutiny as the Labour party on religious bigotry by the media?

  2. Ivartheboneless

    Ivartheboneless Star commenter

    Because it is expected of them?
  3. peapicker

    peapicker Star commenter

    What 'polling' are you referring to?

    Polling organisation? Sample size and selection? Cohort composition? Date of poll?

    Links and evidence required to substantiate your claims... credible links, naturally.

    In other news... Momentum Chair and Corbyn chum Jon Lansman today admited there is a 'major problem' with anti-semitism in Labour that is under-estimated by its leaders. He spoke of a 'widespread problem' with anti-Jewish hatred and added:

    "The Tory party is a small party and an elderly party and I think the role of social media in fomenting and spreading the poison [of anti-semitism] is therefore more of a problem in the Labour Party."

    lexus300, nomad and sparklesparkle like this.

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    Thing is, there couldn't be a bigger contrast in the reaction to Baroness Warsi by senior Tories, to that of senior Labour figures to the anti-Semitism crisis. I sense genuine anguish within the Labour ranks, a soul-searching and desperation to root out the cancer of anti-Semitism for once and for all. Does anyone think that of the Tories and Islamophobia? I sense a barely-concealed yawn of indifference, and the sense that Warsi is beyond the pale for even raising the issue. Far from being embarrassed into action, the Party are fully in sweep-it-all-under-the-carpet mode. Fortunately for them, the popular press are the Tories' friends here, totally ignoring the issue and relegating Warsi to the more obscure parts of the newspaper if they even report her at all.
    emerald52, vinnie24 and Mangleworzle like this.
  5. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    Yes for all the furore we see over religious bigotry the outrage is less than tepid when it is islamophobia.

    I would have thought all religious bigotry was a scourge and those who condemn anti-semitism would also condemn islamophobia.

    That is if they are genuine.
    emerald52 likes this.
  6. artboyusa

    artboyusa Lead commenter

    "Islamophobia" is a fraudulent, weasel word; “a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate ******" in the phrase often attributed to Christopher Hitchens. He didn't actually say it but he agreed with it. So do I.
  7. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

  8. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    I must say it shocks me that you have taken this line.

    You've always struck me as being a friend of Islam.
  9. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    Only according to the Muslim Council of Britain. Some background on this organisation:

    Between 2001 and 2007, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) expressed its unwillingness to attend the Holocaust Memorial Day ceremony and associated events, due to the "ongoing genocide and violation of Human Rights in the occupied Palestinian territories, in Jammu and Kashmir and elsewhere"

    The MCB opposed the repeal of Section 28 on the grounds that presenting "homosexual practice as equivalent to marriage or in a morally neutral way is deeply offensive to Muslims" and that a repeal "undermines the institution of the family and will damage the fabric of our society" On 3 January 2006, Iqbal Sacranie told BBC Radio 4's PM programme he believes homosexuality is "not acceptable" and denounced same-sex civil partnerships as "harmful".

    Schools and education[edit]
    MCB guidance for schools says that parents of Muslim children should be allowed to withdraw their children from school activities involving mixed swimming, dance, sex and relationship education, music, drama, and figurative drawing on religious grounds.

    Historically, MCB has constantly spoken out against sectarianism. In 2013, the council signed an intra-faith unity declaration between a number of Islamic schools and branches within both Sunni and Shia denominations of Islam.[29] In April 2016, following the "religiously prejudiced" murder of a British Ahmadi Muslim, Asad Shah, the MCB denounced any form of murder, but also said nobody should be "forced" to accept the Ahmadiyya Community as part of the wider Muslim community.

    The MCB has been criticised by Martin Bright, among others, for failing to be truly representative. He said, in response to an article by Madeleine Bunting: "any body that represents itself as speaking for the Muslim community must demonstrate that is entirely non-sectarian and non-factional.

    Alice K likes this.
  10. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    Yeah, that anguish and desperation to root out anti-Semitism is why so many Jews are leaving...

    I never, ever dreamt that I would be engaged in a battle to expose and destroy the hatred of Jews in the Labour Party. But since Jeremy Corbyn has been our leader he has created a safe space on the left for those who espouse despicable antisemitic attitudes. And he has generated a hostile environment for Jews inside the party.

    Following on from this Mr Austin, whose Jewish adoptive father was forced to flee the Nazis as a child, commented on anti-Semitism directly and said: "It is terrible that a culture of extremism, anti-Semitism and intolerance is driving out good MPs and decent people who have committed their life to mainstream politics.

    "The hard truth is that the party is tougher on the people complaining about anti-Semitism than it is on the anti-Semites.

    "I think Jeremy Corbyn has completely changed what was a mainstream party into a completely different party with very different values.

    Alice K and nomad like this.
  11. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    Vince_Ulam likes this.
  12. NoseyMatronType

    NoseyMatronType Lead commenter

    I actually agreed with what Donald Trump once said: 'we need to figure out what the hell is going on.'

    Here's my attempt to sketch out what this might involve and just a few of the issues that would require analysis.

    To what extent is the violence and puritanism we are seeing mandated by the primary sources of Islam: Qur'an and hadith?

    Is jihad (the focus of so much media attention) relentless, bloody warfare to be waged by Muslims en masse against non-Muslims until Islam occupies the whole world or until the end of time - whichever occurs first? Or are Muslim moderates correct to insist that a true military jihad is only defensive and conditional, while the internal, non-violent jihad is continuous and unconditional? Is this latter 'greater jihad' a new fangled construction, or is it grounded in the Qur'anic notion of patient forbearance (sabr)?

    Are women second class citizens in Islam? Or is Asma Afsarrudin correct to claim that women enjoy ontologically equal status according to the Qur'an?

    Islamic history/MIddle Eastern History
    To what extent is the moderate/liberal view of the primary sources supported by early Muslim exegetes?

    Did Islam eventually ossify into a static, monolithic entity when 'the gates of ijtihad' were closed leading to 'a closing of the Muslim mind'? What have been the long term effects of this if it did happen?

    Not so long ago, Western scholars of Islam were commending Islam for its tolerance:

    First of all, here is Hamilton Gibb:

    “It possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavours, so many and so various races of mankind.”

    Then there is the assessment of Sir Thomas Arnold:

    “On the whole, unbelievers have enjoyed under Muhammadan rule a measure of toleration, the like of which is not to be found in Europe until quite modern times. Forcible conversion was forbidden, in accordance with the precepts of the Quran… The very existence of so many Christian sects and communities in countries that have been for centuries under Muhammadan rule is an abiding testimony to the toleration they have enjoyed, and shows that the persecutions they have from time to time been called upon to endure at the hands of bigots and fanatics, have been excited by some special and local circumstances rather than inspired by a settled principle of intolerance… But such oppression is wholly without the sanction of Muhammadan law, either religious or civil”.

    More recently, Bernard Lewis (certainly not a writer who could be said to be overly sympathetic to the faith) has written this:

    ‘Until the seventeenth century, there can be no doubt that, all in all, the treatment by Muslim governments and populations of those who believed otherwise was more tolerant and respectful than was normal in Europe… there is nothing in Islamic history to compare with the massacres and expulsions, the inquisitions and persecutions that Christians habitually inflicted on non-Christians, and still more on each other. In the lands of Islam, persecution was the exception; in Christendom sadly, it was often the norm.’

    So what went wrong?

    Who was al-Wahhab and how did Wahhabism get a grip on the wider Muslim world? What is Salafism and is it always and in every form a dangerous or potentially violent form of Islam? To what extent have Wahhabi/Salafi ideas gained a hold over the Muslim communities in the US and Western Europe? Given that these ideas have been largely promoted by Saudi Arabia, how should we respond?

    What about the Muslim Brotherhood? What part has this organisation played in the evolution of Islamic terror? Who was Sayyid Qutb and what was his role in this?

    What are the other relevant causes of the events that have unfolded in the Middle East over the last 35 years that have resulted in the rise of ISIS? To what extent has the Palestinian/Israeli conflict contributed to the problems we are seeing? To what extent has Western foreign policy from the colonial period until now contributed to the mess?

    You would also have to look at the Taliban in its Afghan and Pakistani forms, and consider the significance of Twelver Shi'ism in relation to the Iranian revolution, along with a study of Deobandism.

    An extensive study of Sufism would also be warranted.

    Specifically on Islamaphobia
    What is it? Is the Runnymede Trust's exposition and analysis of this term correct? Is it rational to fear Islam? Is the term 'Islamaphobia' designed to deflect valid and trenchant criticism of the faith? Or does it encapsulate the experiences of many of the 1.5 billion Muslims who face hostility from others simply because of their religion?

    The Kominas are especially eloquent when it comes to this latter question:

    Are Muslims distinctive as a community in ways that make them ill-equipped for integration into Western democratic societies? Are Muslims living in Muslim majority countries inclined to favour a fusion of religious and political authority when it comes to their preferred form of government? Or would they rather have those forces be separate? Do they prefer democracy? Are they prone to mass political violence? Is a 'clash of civilisations' inevitable? Is it reasonable to assume that many of the immigrants seeking entry to the UK harbour radical beliefs?

    Has multiculturalism failed when it comes to the Muslim community? Is there any substance to the claim that 'creeping Sharia law' is something to fear? Are birth rates in the Muslim community disproportionately high in Western countries, so much so as to fuel concerns about the implications for the widening influence of Muslims in the UK and elsewhere?

    What is radicalisation and how does it happen? Do Muslims become terrorists because they acquire certain, usually religiously informed, extremist ideas? Are these ideas acquired in a different way to the way people acquire other extremist or oppositional ideas, such as, say, Marxism or anarchism, or mainstream ideas such as conservatism or liberalism? Is there is a ‘conveyor belt’ that leads from grievance or personal crisis to religiosity to the adoption of radical beliefs to terrorism? Is what makes people vulnerable to acquiring such ideas the fact that they are poorly integrated into society? What is the best way to deal with radicalisation?

    What is a moderate Muslim? Who are the contemporary moderates in Islam and what do they believe? How influential are they? Are prominent Western based Muslim intellectuals like Khaled Abou El Fadl and Tariq Ramadan actually 'stealth Islamists'?

    Concluding questions
    Who is is up to handling multi-disciplinary issues of this complexity? Or is 'straight talking' the only qualification required?

    Who on here thinks they have an understanding of the above topics sufficient to entitle them to contribute meaningfully to the debate?

    Who, in our wider society, is qualified to contribute?

    Could it be that, like teaching, this whole business needs to be taken out of the political arena and left to experts to resolve?

    Or should politicians (and the rest of us, including myself) ensure that, in fact, we are better informed before we start shooting our mouths off?

    Here, specifically for artboy, is a bit of information on the Muslim community in America:

    'Surveys consistently show that the American Muslim community is among the most highly educated and prosperous groups in the country. About 59 per cent of American Muslims hold college degrees, far above the American average of 27 per cent. Most of them are white collar workers or professionals, with a median family income of greater than $50,000 (20 per cent above the national norm)...A large percentage of American Muslims, up to 88%, are likely to vote, and about nine in ten American Muslims support progressive policy positions on health care, school funding, the environment, foreign aid and gun control. However, they tend to be more conservative on social and religious issues, such as abortion and the death penalty.

    Within the American Muslim population, there is a considerable diversity of ethnic groups represented. If one walks into a large urban centre during a congregational prayer, especially on a Friday afternoon, or during one of the two major annual festivals, one will find a veritable United Nations of members from various backgrounds represented - South Asian, Arab, Malay, Indonesian, African, African American, European, Chinese, and others....Despite these considerable cultural variations and high levels of heterogeneity, the large majority of American Muslims are, on the whole, socially and economically integrated into American society....Muslim emigrants to the US arrived with advanced university degrees from their countries of origin, possessed fluency in English, and evinced a strong desire to adapt to their country of adoption without giving up their religious observances.'

    - extracts taken from Asma Afsaruddin Contemporary Issues in Islam pages 142-144

    Oh, and here's another extract from Asfarrudin:

    'American Catholics once laboured under a black cloud of suspicion until the election of John F. Kennedy as the President in 1961. American Jews were also the perennial 'Other' in the majoritarian American psyche until roughly the middle of the 20th Century.

    A repertoire of accusations was hurled against these earlier immigrants calculated to cast doubt on their ability as Catholics and Jews per se to become loyal American citizens: that they owed loyalty to a different sovereign (the Pope) or a different code of law (the Halakah) by virtue of their religious and ethnic designation; their women dressed differently from 'normal' women; and they were incapable of separating religion from politics on account of the all-encompassing medieval religious/canon law they subscribe to, making them intrinsically anti-democratic and incapable of adapting to modernity.'

    To my mind, there is a difference: Catholics and Jews in the USA were not simultaneously engaging in acts of terrorism while they were being treated in this way.

    But I think that Afsaruddin's more general point, which is implicit within the quotation, is valid: we should be wary of essentialising any group of people and demonising them as 'the Other'.

    That should do for now.
  13. sparklesparkle

    sparklesparkle Established commenter

    He dozed off around paragraph 37.

    Nobody else even made it that far.
    xmal and Erin_Rhys like this.
  14. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    Excellent contribution.

    So good I read it twice.
  15. Erin_Rhys

    Erin_Rhys Occasional commenter

    "Nobody else even made it that far."

    The matron cured my insomnia.
    nomad, sparklesparkle and chelsea2 like this.
  16. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    Because, unlike Labour, your figures refer to the electorate rather than party members.
    sparklesparkle likes this.
  17. MAGAorMIGA

    MAGAorMIGA Star commenter

    sparkle has two well-tried and trusted tactics being employed on this thread:
    1) divert the conversation back on to Jews and away from Muslims. Why's that, sparkle? Feel free to start your own thread on your particular hobby horse
    2) Ridicule as boring a long and closely argued post displaying deep knowledge from a poster who has real insight into the nature of Islam and its internal divisions/conflicts.
    For some reason discussing the deep-seated prejudice within the Tory Party against 3 million British people sits uncomfortably with her. I wonder why?
    CraigCarterSmith and cissy3 like this.
  18. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

  19. LondonCanary

    LondonCanary Lead commenter

    On the contrary, you said in the OP
  20. vinnie24

    vinnie24 Lead commenter

    It is Warsi that says the party has a problem. Do you have any contradictory evidence?

    The figures in the poll are not mine. Feel free to dispute them.

    I am all ears.

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