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Cologne sex attacks not crimes according to German law

Discussion in 'Personal' started by Orkrider2, Mar 27, 2016.

  1. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter


    “The German law accepts that a man generally has the right to touch a woman, to have sexual intercourse with a woman. It’s his right, unless the woman shows her resistance very, very strongly,”

    “We have a situation where … even touching the breasts or vagina can’t be punished in the logic of that law, because if the perpetrator does it very quickly, you don’t have time to resist. It seems weird and crazy, but that’s German law.”

    The law focuses on the overwhelming force of the perpetrator, reportedly requiring there to be a "threat of imminent danger to life and limb".

    “If you don’t in the end have any physical harm to show for it - you haven’t been ripped apart, you haven’t gotten bruises, you’re not getting a conviction."

  2. Dragonlady30

    Dragonlady30 Star commenter

    How civilised of them! :mad:
  3. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    Oh dear, and now we're so sensitive we can't even see the letters 'doubleyou' 'tee' and 'eff' when they're placed next to each other.
  4. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    You have got to bet that that law was written by a man
  5. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    I'm really trying to give the benefit of the doubt and think that while it is technically 'illegal' the burden of proof is just so high that without physical evidence, there is no point in pursuing a prosecution. It isn't much better, but the idea that it's presumed that a woman (or presumably man) is consenting to any sexual contact unless they actively and violently resist is completely against everything that I believe in regards to informed consent.
  6. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    It sounds like an old law - the kind we had hanging around until relatively recently, for example when marital rape was made illegal.
  7. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    ETA: link to article: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jinamoore/cologne-attacks-on-women#.tee64NVeae

    Reading the buzzfeed article on it, it seems it's more than just an archaic law, but rather one where it's an issue of trying to avoid 'he said, she said' situations:

    "One goal of the law, experts say, is to avoid “he said, she said” approaches to crimes, but the effect is to undermine the investigation or prosecution of many rape or sexual assault cases that rely on a type of force the law simply doesn’t acknowledge."

    "It’s a legal interpretation confirmed repeatedly by the German courts, including the country’s highest criminal court. In 2012, that court overturned the conviction of a man who a lower court said had raped his wife: He wanted anal sex; she said no; he did it anyway. She cried. She writhed in pain. But the appeals court didn’t find that she sufficiently fought back. Why didn’t she scream? (Her kids were in another room.) Why didn’t she try to run away? (He’d beaten her before.)

    Because she didn’t fight, or scream, or try to physically escape her home, Germany’s high court found that she didn’t not want it enough. Or, as one male German defense lawyer put it to the newspaper Die Zeit, “A woman must carry her ‘no’ through. We [men] can hardly know, with a simple ‘no,’ whether she really means it.”

    “At work, we have a very different regulation, a clearer regulation. It’s called ‘sexual harassment at the workplace,’ and every woman knows it. Every woman knows that, at work, it’s not OK for someone to touch you, to try to kiss you, to lay a hand on your lower back,” said Heike Lütgart, a criminologist and career police officer with decades of experience investigating gender-based violence in Bielefeld, a small German city about two hours from Cologne. “But on the street, you haven’t got that. There’s no law. That’s a great problem for women, and women don’t know it. They say, ‘Wait, any man can just come and touch me and pet me and kiss me, and it’s nothing?’”

    Yes, in fact.

    “There’s no crime [there]. Nothing has happened from the law’s perspective,” Lütgart said.

    "it brings to attention the fact that sexual assault actually happens fairly regularly in Germany — including on public holidays. “At Octoberfest, at Karnaval, we always have a lot of sexual crimes,” said Heike Lütgart, the criminologist. (Karnaval is the German holiday just before Lent begins, and Cologne is basically the national capital of the celebration.) “But society accepts that. It’s just like that.”

  8. Burndenpark

    Burndenpark Star commenter

    Could be worse, at least they seem to be willing to accept that an oral rejection in German is acceptable (possibly with a couple of bruises), rather than one written out in triplicate and translated into 20 different languages.

    as was said earlier
    Whisky Tango Foxtrot!!!
    aspensquiver_2 likes this.
  9. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    If I were a German woman, I'd invest in a pepper spray...
  10. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

  11. InkyP

    InkyP Star commenter

    Awful. No words.
  12. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Bad if true but what has prompted this story in the Independent? Going by the text it seems to be about someone talking about what they think German law says and nothing else. No trial or hearing appear to have been held.
  13. Orkrider2

    Orkrider2 Star commenter

    The buzz feed article (I know not the most reliable source) seems to be approaching it from the angle of why the police apparently did nothing at the time/were late to react publicly. In particular it seems to focus on the implication by the media that it was out of some sort of political correctness and reluctance to offend Muslims. If it isn't seen as a particularly offensive thing in German culture and just something that happens, then it's less likely the inaction of the authorities is to do with multicultural concerns or worries about being seen to be pc
  14. cissy3

    cissy3 Star commenter

    I don't know, but as I was interested, I did a bit of googling, and found further examples, regarding Germany's attempt to tighten these laws.

    eg from 16th March (The Local via AFP)


    There are many other examples, even the mail, all around the same date.
    So it seems valid.

    Whether this excuses perpetrators of sexual assaults, because'' they didn't contravene the law,'' is open to debate, and why now, and not years ago?
  15. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    The spate of arrests and trials for historical sexual abuse in recent times, tell us how much attitudes in Britain have changed. I would suspect there would have been bewilderment by much of the public if some of those charges had been made at the time the offenses were committed. That's not to say I condone a single one of them, but we can't assume that everywhere in the world keeps pace with law in Britain.

    Let's not forget that those who were convicted of historical sexual assaults got relatively light sentences compared with what they might expect if the offenses were committed today, because the sentences have to reflect the law as it stood at the time.
  16. Catstories

    Catstories New commenter

    You wanted it, you got it!

    Why so surprised?
  17. rosievoice

    rosievoice Star commenter

    I think this should lead to a situation where an enthusiastic jab in the perpetrator's eyeball cannot be punished in the logic of the law, because if l did it very quickly, he didn't have time to resist. Fairses.
    Burndenpark and cissy3 like this.
  18. cissy3

    cissy3 Star commenter

    It's a slightly different context though Duke.

    (See rosievoice's post above! Which I think explains it pretty succintly!)
  19. Duke of York

    Duke of York Star commenter

    It's always going to be a different context though, isn't it, cissy? If a British man has an affair, it gets dealt with the British way, which basically boils down in the UK to live with that situation or move on. Elsewhere it means the women get stoned. I'm not an expert in barbaric law but I expect the adulterous woman gets stoned along with the wife for encouraging the need for the man to stray.

    We can't comprehend that sort of mentality and in my view, we shouldn't even attempt to try in case our own sense of morality gets tainted by the experience.

    Did you know that it is still illegal in Britain to allow a servant to stand on the sill of a window to clean or paint it? We still have a law that states than all beached whales and sturgeons have to be offered to the Monarch. If you knowingly have the plague, it's illegal to flag down a London taxi..
  20. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Any persecutions for these 'offences' in the last 50 or more years?

    They have fallen into disuse and - even if they haven't been repealed - aren't in practice part of the legal system any more.

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