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Clarification please... subject 'co-ordinator'/'leader' and TLRs

Discussion in 'Pay and conditions' started by Missysquirrel, Apr 15, 2011.

  1. I wonder if someone could clarify the following please...
    - Is there a difference between a subject 'co-ordinator' and 'leader'?
    - Do either carry a TLR with them?
    - Can either be asked to monitor a subject without having a TLR?
  2. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    not unless the school makes one clear in a job description, the STPCD talks of subject leadership
    Either can but in at least half of primary schools they don't; some would then argue that there is then no accountability or responsibility for the subject area (which the STPCD does make clear requires a TLR Section 3 para 86).
    Anything can be asked, but if you are not responsible or accountable no-one can demand, expect or require an explanation or carrying out of anything, just ask.
  3. Just to give you a primary HTs take on the last point.
    There is a strong view that subject leadership in primary, where there is no responsibility for or accountability fro exam results and standards across the school is part of a teachers duties.
    Therefore subject leadership can be demanded, as opposed to asked for. Carrying out of duties / tasks by your employer in support of this, would be expected.
  4. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    this is misleading, dog, The STPCD makes no mention whatsoever of exam results, or indeed results of any kind, all teachers are responsible for the standards of their <u>assigned </u>pupils. no-one can be made enforceably responsible for standards across the school without a TLR, you are misinforming your staff if that is what you tell them.
    As my previous post indicated, that is not the case although many schools and heads flout this aspect of our contract and their staffs keep quiet..
  5. Wel bb we agree on the first point.
    However, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you as to the second point and I have at least one professional association of head teachers on my side as well as DFE.
  6. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    and I have only got the STPCD.....
    KimW123 likes this.
  7. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    that is pretty much the legal position, but the way things work in many schools is frankly in contravention of our contract. Personally if a head told me I had to do it for nothing I would refuse but that isn't the only option open to a good manager: it kind of depends on the management style you wish to embrace - most staffrooms can be pushed, bullied or misled on a number of issue before the fur flies- if the posts on these forums are anything to go by. The fact that you have posted here indicates you wish to do things professionally, so why not put the position to the staff: there will be no TLRs as your budget can not take it, for their own CPD (not necessarily attractive to older members of staff) and the good running of the school they should undertake some of the roles of a subject leader as laid out in the STPCD, perhaps on a rotating or voluntary basis although none of them will be held responsible or accountable for the work or standards of pupils outside of their own classroom, that would have to lie with management.
    A problem arises with equality of responsibility. As an ICT Coordinator I know no other coordinator does anything like the work I do, much of it not even in my job description, it would be unacceptable in terms of the STPCD but I do get a TLR - without it I don't think I would do it on a voluntary basis.
    You could perhaps decide as a school that some roles would need a certain amount of management time each year, especially at certain times of year, to do things like monitoring or policy/SOW renewal or whatever your SIP calls for.
    If you trust yourself and your staff you can work it out with them.
    PS yes a man. Gentleman? the jury is still out.......
  8. If I may butt in here? Certainly a Gent, Beckton - the amount of help you have given out freely over the years, not in small part due to the stupidly comprehensive guide to ICT Subject Co-ordinator you gave out at no cost to TES members, makes you alot more of a Gent than many can lay claim to on here.....
  9. I had mathematics thrust upon me this year, I have a huge extra workload, staff meetings, planning and book scrutinies, learning walks observations, expecting to impact across the school and am not paid anymore than a standard teacher. As much as I enjoy a challenge, I have asked for TLR and told mathematics is not a teaching and learning responsibility .... I disagree! Maths is very much a focus in our SIP and I am working really hard compared to a lot of other well paid staff.
  10. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    You were hopefully told that Maths does not have a TLR, otherwise your school is definitely living in a world of make believe.
    No TLR, no requirement on you to carry out the additional work over and above what anyone else does. Of course if every teacher in the school has equivalent additional responsibilities over and above their c lassroom role then doing the work is perhaps only fair, but ifthe work has not been done to someone else's timetable or when the big O comes calling you can not be held either accountable or responsible for a subject area.
  11. OP As you will see from this and other threads, BBs opinion is not fully accepted.
    My reading of STPCD and that of organisations such as NAHT, ASCL and DfE is that taking on subject coordinator roles does not have to be accompanied by the award of a TLR. The key seems to be whether the person is accountable for the subject. In primary schools, particularly this is unlikely to be the case.
  12. becktonboy

    becktonboy New commenter

    Would agree with TC's understanding apart from his 'reading' STPCD Sect 3 para 91. When I read"Teachers are expected to contribute, both orally and in writing as appropriate, to curriculum development by sharing their professional expertise with colleagues and advising on effective practice. This does not mean that they can be expected to take on the responsibility of, and accountability for, a subject area or to manage other teachers without appropriate additional payment. Responsibilities of this nature should be part of a post that is in the leadership group or linked to a post which attracts a TLR on the basis set out in paragraph 23"I feel my view is pretty secure.
    If the views of organisations such as the NAHT are to be regarded (not sure why I have seen a bit of very dubious advice on their website in the past) we must then also tske into account the expert views of the NUT and NASUWT which would read the law much as I do. As to the DfE, well look to their leader's vision of what teachers' pay and conditions should look like...
    Personally as a subject coordinator in a Primary school I am very much responsible and accountable for my subject, I fail to see why this would not be the case.

  13. Subject leaders in my school and in most of those primaries that I have contact with are not accountable for those subjects. They are not responsible for exam results or pupil progress in anything like the same way subject leaders in secondary schools are.
    A friend of mine is Head of Maths in a large secondary school. She is responsible for standards, A levels, GCSEs etc. For this she recieves a TLR.
    Primary schools are not too likely to place a similar burden on subject leaders. If they do, then they should reward them.
  14. While secondary school teachers may have a large burden on them, it is down to the primary school teachers to teach the students so they can access the secondary curriculum. Primary schools are under exactly the same scrutiny and pressures as a secondary school. It
    is just that the challenges that are different. So subject leaders in Primary schools need to be rewarded in the same way.
  15. We have a new Head this year who has asked me to write an action plan for English. (I was given the role of Literacy leader) we are a very small school, I am on basic M5 salary and part-time. It seems like a lot of extra work and resposibility for no reward. I would welcome anyones thoughts as to whether this is normal practise?
  16. modgepodge

    modgepodge Established commenter

    Could you ask for some release time to do this? Like at most primaries, my school does not pay TLRs but all staff (except nqts) are expected to coordinate a subject. We are however, given staff meeting time and release time to complete the necessary work. Also, some people who coordinate "small" subjects (RE, history etc) do f*** all all year and no one really says anything!so I guess we're not held accountable (tho I have a feeling maths and English coordinators ARE).
  17. hana54

    hana54 New commenter

    I would love some clarification on this too! I have been made head of English at my school and am responsible for monitoring, organising training, analysing data, leading staff meetings related to my subject, etc. I imagine that when OFSTED come in I will be held accountable for my subject. I am already anticipating that this will require lots of extra hours of work. However, I am in my 2nd year of teaching so am on a lower wage than any other teacher at my school. Would I be laughed out of the HT's office if I asked for a TLR? I've been putting off asking because to be honest I have no idea what the norm is re. pay and conditions of subject leaders.
  18. chriszwinter1

    chriszwinter1 New commenter

    I'm interested in the words "I have been made" and wonder whether you applied or were just handed the responsibility. If the school is using the STPCD for 2013, then I would encourage you to examine paragraph 24, particularly sections 1 and 4, which set out the circumstances for TLRs.

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