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Discussion in 'Early Years' started by cath1980, Aug 2, 2009.
Now what came first the DDA ruling or un toilet trained children?
I suspect the DDA
Just a thought...
I was in Primary School in late fifties until mid sixties and of course the majority of us went home to our key worker, our mother, for over an hour at lunch time and so you only had to be dry in school for three hours maximum and little grazing went o in that period! We were in school for less time, with no access to water or snacks and so maybe the need to go to the loo was removed.
Also we fifties children were at the other end of the specturm to delayed training, we were all dry by eighteen months, thanks to vigilant mothers who have been much criticised at a later for the damage to our psyche as a result. There were few washing machines and their incentive was to save on laundry!
I went to school slightly later than you Hedda and stayed for luch although by all accounts I ate nothing. Our school day was as long as it is for children today and in addition our school toilets were across the school playground so no one went except at playtime.
Think DDA was frist introduced in 1995.
As the mother of 3 little boys, and a secondary teacher, I think it is outrageous that reception teachers would be expected to deal with this issue! Definitely have a 'no nappies' rule and let them sit in their wet / dirty underwear because chances are their parents haven't let them do this which is why they are still not toilet trained...
The equivalent for a secondary teacher doesn't bear thinking about!
PS My eldest son has recently come to the end of his reception year and I have a huge amount of respect for any reception teacher!
When both my children went to playgroup (early and late eighties), they had to be toilet trained and they started at 2 years nine months.
The document above was quite infromative.
However I had to smile at this
Depending on the location and ease of access to the school’s/setting’s facilities, an individual child can be changed in 10 minutes. .
<font face="Times New Roman"> </font><font face="Times New Roman"> Cath- come on now it only takes ten minutes to change a nappy according to Southwark so- as you only have 4 children in nappies and they might need changing three times a day that will only be 2 hours that the other 26 children have to Spend teaching themselves
</font><font><font size="3">It does go on to say that it the school’s responsibility to provide resources not just write a policy and that HT should liaise with parents before entry. So perhaps your SMT need to shoulder some of the responsibility of providing support to cope with this</font></font>
This person has evidently never had to clean dried on poo that is crusted on as far as the child's shoulder blades. (Well sometimes if they are playing outside you don't smell it at first!)
Neither have they ever had a child in their class on Movicol, making them poo again before you've even fastened their new nappy.
Or the child who has spread it up the sides of the toilet cubicle or in the case of my last "serial soiler" a mother who doesn't put him in under pants so it drops out the bottom of his trousers and is promptly stood on by half a dozen children who track it throughout the setting... 10 mins!!
Don't you just love the parents who don't tell you when their child has been prescribed laxatives?
Msz, Hedda and Ms JB,
Had all of the above scenarios you describe and am now saying NO!...not our job to parents. Yes I will probably get my knuckles wrapped if someone want to take it further but I'm a teacher, not a childminder.
It also has huge implications in terms of managing infection control....I have nightmares after the last child dropped poo out his pants..and not finding it all.
I'm sure we are going to find it dried up, picked up and added to the playgdough at some point.
Well in Sept it will be me and 29 children ( fingers crossed I get a TA pretty quickly but we aren't even thinking about what the job advert will say until we get back so I imagine a half term at least right at the beginning of the year) so won't be able to
I used to send for the HT whenever a child needed cleaning up. (There was me and 30 children in that class). Haha - I wasn't popular!
I can remember working in reception a few years ago and one little boy came out of the toilets while I was supporting the other children getting their coats on ready for playtime (I never fastened any straighaway, encouraging the children to try themselves resulting in all the children being able to fasten their coats, put on hats and gloves for themselves by October half-term but i digress). Anyway this little boy came out of the boys toilets with with his pants and trousers round his ankles, carrying a piece of toilet tissue which he prompty handed to me, turned around and demanded in a bossy voice, 'Wipe me!' I don't know which shocked me more him bending over or him demanding without saying please ;-)
We also had another girl who used to soil regularly and was very smelly (the family had several children and she had serious behaviour issues and the family were well know to social services), when she soiled the arrangement was we phoned mum who came and changed her. The smell of the child used to make us gag and the head was adamant we shouldn't be changning a child of that age where there was no medical reason. The problem we had was that the mum (who lived five minutes away and did not work - no one in the family worked) would often ignore the phone or take about 90 minutes to arrive so we couldn't leave the child like that as it wasn't fair on her or the other children who had to put up with the stench so we often ended up having to clean her up anyway. The child soiled most days and we think given the issues at home and the massive size of the family it was learned behaviour that was being done for attention which was quite sad. Sometimes she soiled two or three times a day and it made the job very unpleasant - funnily enough I went to secondary after this so I didn't have to do this kind of intimate care. I don't think teachers or TAs should be doing this unless it is specifically negotiated or written in their contracts for children with disability issues.
Up until about two years ago our school refused to accept children in nursery or reception if they were not toilet trained (unless a medical reason was given). Then we had a falling roll....
Now we accept all chidren, in nappies, pull ups - you name it, we take them. They pay our wages......each child is worth.....
Our rule is; if you smell it, you change it! Teachers, TAs, Nursery Nurses - we all do it under the 'duty of care' section in our job descriptions. I have never, in 21 years of teaching had so many children unable to take care of their own personal hygiene and yes, it shocks me. If it happens outside, staff can't leave the other children alone, if it happens inside you could be changing a child alone - not something the union would advise. I really don't know the answer, but I don't think this situation will get better - infact I know it's getting worse!
P.S. I toilet trained twin boys and no, it wasn't easy!
i agree it isnt easy and when you are alone in the classrom what do you do. Parents and children seem to be out of step these days. Its surprsing to me just how little parents do in the form of preparing children for school, instead leaving it to us....especially you guys in pre school and nursery....
i think its an issue that unions should be addressing....
I know this is going to sound very un pc - but with all the dicsussions of working parents not having time to spend training their children properly I have to admit to having absolutely no sympathy - you wouldn't take on a job if you couldn;t do it properly - if parents don't have the time to commit to actually parenting well/can't be bothered, then they shoudln't be having the children in the first place - contraception is pretty darn reliable these days - I didn't become a teacher to make up for someones inequites as a parent - I became a teacher because I enjoy working with young people and seeing them enjoy themselves learn - stuff like changing nappies should be a sole responsibility of the parents and if they can't manage it then yes - they should be ashamed of themselves because they are failing in what amounts to the most important job they could ever choose to do
- bring up children is surely one thing that has to be worth doing properly, I cannot imagine my own mother having put up with me or my sister being so far behind - she gave up her own taeching job (and I must add more than halving the family income) so that she had the time to spend on raising us properly - and for that I am forever grateful
No clairething don't be embarrassed about being non-pc. Mums at home is great. Mums at work is great. But 5 yo children comng to school who are not toilet trained is not great - not great for us, not great for them or their self esteem. In my class we have just toilet trained a Global Developmental Delay child in 3 weeks to use the toilet or communicate his needs. And he has NO SPOKEN LANGUAGE - we use markaton. I think that pull-ups are a great invention, but the downside is that young children no longer get the discomfort of the sensation of wetting themselves. One of my sons was a bedwetter till late. I would have loved pull-ups for that purpose, but not for daytime use. Parents who use them long term are truly doing their children a major disservice.
Hi - great debate!
I teach Early Years and have 4 children of my own, all of whom were dry during the day by 2 and who were mortified if they had an accident (very, very rarely) at school.
Peeing and pooing are basic human functions along with the desire for food and drink. If you can monitor getting it in, you can monitor getting it out.
I think the lack of ability to toilet train or to be toilet trained is due to the global lack of respect rendolent in the world today. There seems to be no respect for self other than 'I'm alright Jack', and certainly no respect for others. Certainly no self-respecting parent would wish to send their child to another person's house and be happy for the child to pee and poo randomly, and they wouldn't want a visiting child to do likewise.
Or maybe I'm just locked in the 1960's......
I mentioned this debate to my 19yr old son who was horrified by the prospect of his mother having to change nappies - 'I thought you were a teacher!'
I'm sure if a child can ask for a Nintendo DS they can also ask for the toilet.