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Centenary of WW1 armistice....

Discussion in 'Personal' started by BigFrankEM, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    ...pretty nauseating excess of militarism/ jingoism/ stupidity all round.

    Not least, or should that be especialement, from M Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...acron-and-world-leaders-at-armistice-ceremony

    Fortunately, long before Emmanuel began drooling in the lycée La Providence, Robert Allen had already told him straight:








    Oh my name it is nothin’
    My age it means less
    The country I come from
    Is called the Midwest
    I’s taught and brought up there
    The laws to abide
    And that the land that I live in
    Has God on its side

    Oh the history books tell it
    They tell it so well
    The cavalries charged
    The Indians fell
    The cavalries charged
    The Indians died
    Oh the country was young
    With God on its side

    Oh the Spanish-American
    War had its day
    And the Civil War too
    Was soon laid away
    And the names of the heroes
    l’s made to memorize
    With guns in their hands
    And God on their side

    Oh the First World War, boys
    It closed out its fate
    The reason for fighting
    I never got straight
    But I learned to accept it
    Accept it with pride
    For you don’t count the dead
    When God’s on your side

    When the Second World War
    Came to an end
    We forgave the Germans
    And we were friends
    Though they murdered six million
    In the ovens they fried
    The Germans now too
    Have God on their side

    I’ve learned to hate Russians
    All through my whole life
    If another war starts
    It’s them we must fight
    To hate them and fear them
    To run and to hide
    And accept it all bravely
    With God on my side

    But now we got weapons
    Of the chemical dust
    If fire them we’re forced to
    Then fire them we must
    One push of the button
    And a shot the world wide
    And you never ask questions
    When God’s on your side

    Through many dark hour
    I’ve been thinkin’ about this
    That Jesus Christ
    Was betrayed by a kiss
    But I can’t think for you
    You’ll have to decide
    Whether Judas Iscariot
    Had God on his side

    So now as I’m leavin’
    I’m weary as Hell
    The confusion I’m feelin’
    Ain’t no tongue can tell
    The words fill my head
    And fall to the floor
    If God’s on our side
    He’ll stop the next war

    Copyright © 1963 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1991 by Special Rider Music
     
    sparkleghirl and vinnie24 like this.
  2. Photo51

    Photo51 Established commenter

    On the contrary, I think the Armistice was a good thing
     
    needabreak likes this.
  3. monicabilongame

    monicabilongame Star commenter

  4. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter


    Zimmerman
    I take it predictive text didn't like Dylan's name ?
     
  5. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    The version of the song by Manfred Mann (with Paul Jones singing, I think) is actually even better (IMHO):

     
  6. HelenREMfan

    HelenREMfan Star commenter

    Nope...it can't hold a candle to Dylan
     
    BigFrankEM likes this.
  7. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    It's all a matter of taste...;)

    But come on, Dylan is a great songwriter but a pretty ordinary singer! :D
     
  8. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter


    Nope.

    I wrote it that way.

    (At least a little bit show offy? "Guilty as charged," I'm afraid. Though only, I hope, in this very narrow context; "Dylan" not "war."

    See the avatar too.

    Sorry.)

    As for war... and the habit of the generals and politicians to talk it up when it suits them and to talk it down also when it suits them.....


    As one of Dylan's contemporaries Phil Ochs wrote:
    "It's always the old, who lead us to the wars, it's always the young who die...."
     
  9. sbkrobson

    sbkrobson Star commenter

    I went to see Bob Dylan in a large football stadium gig many many years ago,when football stadium gigs were the new thing.
    The show was great, but then he came back for an encore. It went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
    I think he actually forgot to stop. Somebody eventually threw a can of beer at him. Luckily it didn't hit him. He picked it up, opened it,drank it lustily and then, you'll never guess-
    he went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
    It was such a boring gig that there isn't even a punch line to this story. Bye.
     
  10. Photo51

    Photo51 Established commenter

    If Dylan had been around in 1914, there would have been no war. The Summer of Love would have come half a century earlier.
     
  11. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    I hadn't ever heard this before so I've just watched this while following the lyrics.

    Curiously, the MM version skips the verse about the Spanish American war and also the one about learning to hate Russians.

    And Judas Iscariot - did he have God on his side?
     
  12. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter


    Presumably...because if he hadn't betrayed Jesus = no arrest = no Crucifixion = no resurrection = no Christian religion! ;)
     
  13. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Guessing this is tongue in cheek.

    What this thread appears to be missing is the time frame, criticising a war that started in 1914 to the freedoms of the entertainers and protesters in the 1960's and after is possibly inappropriate at best and misleading at worst. Different times different methodology and apart from anything else criticising the past retrospectively is a luxury not afforded those who lost their lives or had their lives changed for the liberty of later generations. There is much to be learned from the past I agree but it does not invalidate it.

    As for those who fought and survived and those who lost their lives in that (and subsequent wars) why should they not be remembered on the centenary of the end of the war? Being highjacked by the far right extremism may well be an issue but that is different in the current context to all previous memorials.

    I would say the increasing recognition of those serving military personnel from the then British colonies unrecognised until now for example is a way in which current thinking is certainly more positive than in our recent past.
     
  14. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    Your opinion.

    One which I certainly do not share.

    Hence this thread?

    Depends I guess on your understanding of "invalidate"

    Meaning that "the past never happened" is obviously absurd

    Meaning that "the follies of the past can have a more discerning light shone upon them" then I for one think this is not only possible but essential.

    Hence the address by the Leicestershire priest which caused such umbrage?
     
  15. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Follies? I would not associate war with the term folly.

    Now we align our prayers for peace with addressing unrest, back then 'we' probably prayed for our defence to succeed... time passes things change... is that big news?
     
  16. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    Aucune réponse

    But some old habits of thinking or perhaps of not-thinking die very hard indeed.

    Or not at all?
     
  17. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Agreed but we ignore the lessons of the past at our peril and should not forget the sacrifices in my view.

    Perhaps we should consider that remembering the past and honouring those who made sacrifices does not automatically mean it is a recommendation to behave in the same ways again... then again we do need defence when others behave poorly. *Again in my view.
     
  18. magic surf bus

    magic surf bus Star commenter

    I agree - the conscript or even the volunteer doesn't determine the strategy that makes them a casualty. We can still honour those who got caught up in the mincing machine even if we condemn those who put them through it.
     
    needabreak likes this.
  19. sbkrobson

    sbkrobson Star commenter

    Did anybody watch "They Shall Not Grow Old"?
    Here, not that you'd just nip into it and return to the thread, it's a full length film
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0brzkzx/they-shall-not-grow-old

    The reason I mention it is that had I not seen the film, I'd have thought about liking the opening post in this thread. I thought only in concepts rather than in realities. Shallow me, involved in my today.
    But I saw the film and honestly? I cried a little, and I had a rethink about the real meaning of Remembrance day. For that reason it's up there with the best films I have seen. I'm no historian. It changed my mind about history, and actually made me feel bad about myself for never reflecting on so many basics. That needed to happen. How many films do that?
    The most poignant statement was, having seen most of the film, that "when we returned and started to describe our lives out there, nobody seemed in the slightest bit interested".
    Such a brilliant brilliant film. Give it multiple Oscars.
    I don't like the opening post at all-sorry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  20. Photo51

    Photo51 Established commenter

    The film shows the lack of diversity then. Women have the opportunity to fight too now thanks to feminist campaigns
     

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