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Catalonia declares independence! Moment in History! where are you?

Discussion in 'Personal' started by red_observer, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

    I have never seen things that way. As a downtrodden guttersnipe from primary school on, passed over so that the pretty could win prizes, I have not been taken in by image. Clever words can get to me.
     
  2. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Lead commenter

    Sadly though for many it really is style over substance and it's dangerous to underestimate the effect that can have.
     
  3. racroesus

    racroesus Star commenter

  4. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Lead commenter

    First they came for the politicians....

    ......today it's the director of s satirical magazine (El Jueves) for daring to run a joke about the continued presence of riot police in Barcelona having an effect on the city's supply of cocaine. It's a slippery slope.
     
  5. anotherauntsally

    anotherauntsally Senior commenter

    That the majority of residents didn’t vote for it and don’t seem to want it?
     
  6. anotherauntsally

    anotherauntsally Senior commenter

    Another interesting perspective:

    “The moment when all democrats should have recognized Puigdemont as an adventurer and chancer was when, in advance of his referendum, he said a majority vote would justify a declaration of independence, regardless of turnout. This was said in the knowledge that the vast majority of anti-independence voters had no intention of participating in an illegal poll. In other words, he knew in advance that his mandate was worthless by any international standard but continued to assert it.”​

    and

    “Another trait we can readily recognise is continued reference to the ‘unreasonableness’ of the Spanish government and its ‘refusal to negotiate’... In fact, the president of the Basque region brokered an agreement with Madrid which Puigdemont agreed to and then, fearing a backlash, reneged upon. The deal was that action to assert Spain’s authority over Catalonia would be suspended, pending the outcome of elections. That was a risky option for Madrid which would not have resolved the question of “what happens if the separatists win?” But it makes nonsense of the claim that UDI was the only option.”​

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinio...-in-this-attempt-at-catalan-tyranny-1-4603104
     
  7. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    I should have guessed it was a Wilson opinion piece simply from the style....

    It's an opinion and, like most other opinions, somewhat tainted by inherent bias ;)

    That is true but given that the voting process was seriously interfered with by both political and national interests it is hard to see how valid any of the voting figures really were
    That is speculation as not all were given the chance to decide (see above)

    Of a certainty both the referendum and the declaration were foolishly conceived and doomed to failure given the Spanish Constitution.
    But perhaps that is the target that should have been chosen.
    And probably will be in the fullness of time.

    I seriously doubt that this has ended or ever will
     
  8. jomaimai

    jomaimai Established commenter

    Nah...
    Sorry about that but...
    just about half the electorate is "indepe" right now.
     
  9. anotherauntsally

    anotherauntsally Senior commenter

    I did try to remove references to Scotland from the pieces I quoted because I didn’t think they were relevant. What I posted was what Wilson reported as fact. Is it only opinion,though, that many of the pro-remain voters said in advance that they didn’t recognise the referendum and wouldn’t be voting? We heard that before the referendum took place and 90% of the voters being separatists surely bears this out. And I’m not sure how the reporting of a brokered agreement which the Catalan president then reneged on can be seen as opinion when it must be able to be checked.
     
  10. anotherauntsally

    anotherauntsally Senior commenter

    90% of the 48% who voted wanted independence, so the majority didn’t vote for it and seem to have shown by that that they don’t want it, so don’t be sorry. We’ll all know next month whether they’ve changed their minds or not.
     
  11. jomaimai

    jomaimai Established commenter

    This was before the Spanish police started beating people and before they put the Catalan goverment in jail.
     
  12. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    Phrased that way? yes
    Spanish politics is not the nice polite form we are used to in the UK (or even in the Scottish part of it) and the manoeuvring of all sides was particularly "interesting" over the years leading up to this.
    It made the Scottish Referendum seem like a polite discussion at a vicarage tea party by comparison.
    A lot of Spaniards, not only those in Catalunya, were threatened with the certainty (not just the probability or even the possibility) of civil war resulting from either a Yes or No vote.... The "non-recognition" stance was mooted as the only way to prevent that (by those political parties with most to lose politically)
    The reality is that it was a cynical, calculated example of politicians using the most profound fears of their constituents and as such is actually slightly worse than much of the EU referendum propaganda and close to being worthy of Trump.

    I'll agree that the Catalan leaders were foolish to ignore the brokered agreement even if it did come with clauses that most of the population would have liked.
    However if you look at the history of the Spanish government system since it was set up, few agreements have ever been worth the paper they were written on or the hot air that they generated
     
  13. anotherauntsally

    anotherauntsally Senior commenter

    And before the unilateral declaration of independence. I agree that it seems to be a pretty even split but the outcome of the election may give a clearer idea. Spain certainly won’t be doing itself any favours by getting too rough.
    Catalan media don’t seem to be helping calm the situation with pro independence articles. It’s impossible to find an article by an impartial observer. Post a link if you have one.
     
  14. Didactylos4

    Didactylos4 Star commenter

    I have the same problem or I would have posted one in my previous comments ;)
     
    anotherauntsally likes this.
  15. silkywave

    silkywave Occasional commenter

    As posters have said, it’s difficult to get an unbiased view of the situation. From what I have read it is far from everyone’s desire for independence, but what we do see is a volatile situation not helped buy the readiness to arrest those involved. Neither has the past dithering of Rajoy helped. Others see the mafia causing tension.
     
  16. colacao17

    colacao17 New commenter

    Politicians, satirists and now teachers. Teachers who encouraged discussion of police violence after the referendum have been charged with hate crimes. Apparently.

    And while there are lots of catalans who oppose independece, the referendum was possible because pro-independence parties won government in the last (democratic) electrions.
     
  17. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Just discovered son & partner have bought cheapo tickets to Barcelona for a short break there early next year...

    Fingers now firmly crossed that everything will have quietened down by then!
     
  18. Flere-Imsaho

    Flere-Imsaho Star commenter

    When elected politicians are being charged with sedition and their party declared illegal it seems unlikely that things will calm down.
     
  19. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

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