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Bring back the Cane

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by Mr.Chips, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Autismuk: "Why not do both ?

    "I agree with you that there's more to this than simply battening down on the children. One has to make a huge cultural switch (that I'm not even sure is possible any more) dumping the bullying self interest world-owes-me-a-living mentality that is running rampant (and starts with our Government who are a bunch of thugs IMO)."

    Yes I think that's the way forward, and I certainly wasn't suggesting (as oldandrew seems to imagine) that nothing is done to address the problem, only that the way we go about it needs to take some different assumptions on board than the ones that seem to prevail at the moment.

    More specialised help for the severely disruptive kids, yes. More training in psychology for pupil support/guidance staff? But also a move towards understanding bullying behaviour rather than just condemning it. This needs 1 to 1 work outside class though.

    As well as the sanctions you suggest (and let's assume they're applied fairly and consistently), what about some *incentives* for the kids? Settling down to work at school is a far more attractive proposition if there's a perceptible benefit rather than just an absence of sanctions. Surely the most effective solution is going to be one that gets them working with you, not against you? Remember how you felt at school? Look at it from their point of view. How can you hope to teach them to respect your viewpoint, let alone other viewpoints and ways of life, if you're not walking that talk yourself in regard to them? Many get cynical and start taking the **** for that reason alone.

    A lot of disruption arises out of boredom and a sense of having no choice. Even the non-disruptive kids suffer from this. How about the profession gets together and demands urgent changes to the curriculum to give you more freedom to actually teach, and kids more freedom in what (and possibly how) they choose to study? (And if the kids start to see that you're on their side in trying to change the system, you'll get more respect and cooperation.)

    Kids need a voice and (genuine) ownership of some of the decision-making. Loads of benefits -- team-working, group decision-making, negotiation skills, feeling valued, contributing, having responsibility for something important to the group, working with adults. Essential citizenship skills and a great lesson in responsible use of power.

    Kids get frustrated with playing 'let's pretend'. Give them hands-on experience, or if they can't be trusted with the real thing, then don't bother. 'Let's pretend' just makes them feel they're not good enough to be trusted and leads to them playing up to that assumption.

    You have to really mean this and not have some other agenda in mind (kids see through it otherwise), but why not get the kids involved in a school-wide initiative aimed at making school a place you all want to be? Witnessing how horrible it is for all of you, kids and teachers alike, and progressing to what would make a difference to everyone? (Other than just "kids doing what they're told".)

    As for this government, I think we get the governments we deserve. They're just another reflection in the mirror. We can't have it both ways -- individual freedom and a state that takes care of everything. If we didn't go baying or bleating to those in authority every time something goes wrong (which it will: that's life) we wouldn't have such a bunch of hyper control freaks in positions of power trying to dictate our every move.
     
  2. "As well as the sanctions you suggest (and let's assume they're applied fairly and consistently), what about some *incentives* for the kids?"

    I kinda took that as a given. I've no problem with rewards for good children, or consistent improvement (not just better for the treat, a real issue in mainstream) at all. No problem with it. Do well, good things happen, do bad, bad things happen.

    "A lot of disruption arises out of boredom and a sense of having no choice."

    Yes and no. They have lots of choices on the down side ; far too many of them and not enough on the upside. I want to rebalance that. I agree the curriculum is boring **** (should've been on my list as well) and this doesn't help at all. Ages ago we had EBD boys doing Needlework and they really liked it. Similarly Woodwork and Cookery. Now it's all plan things on paper in massive detail. It neither provides interest nor skills nor a quality education.

    "You have to really mean this and not have some other agenda in mind (kids see through it otherwise), but why not get the kids involved in a school-wide initiative aimed at making school a place you all want to be?"

    Not really possible. In SEN/Therapeutic they will allow some bolloxing around with the curriculum ; in mainstream they won't. Also, you don't have the same pressure of targets ; your lot aren't "expected" (by the Govt, not their teachers) to get any GCSEs of any value (though my lads did) ao there's not the same pressure to up the meaningless statistics.

     
  3. Autismuk: "Not really possible. In SEN/Therapeutic they will allow some bolloxing around with the curriculum ; in mainstream they won't. Also, you don't have the same pressure of targets ; your lot aren't "expected" (by the Govt, not their teachers) to get any GCSEs of any value (though my lads did) ao there's not the same pressure to up the meaningless statistics."

    Yes I know about the pressure of targets. It's a big part of the problem. And kids know your hands are tied -- so they play on that. Maybe you need to get more proactive and assertive as a profession? Start saying to LEAs/Govt ****** to targets there's something that's way more important we have to do here ... which is to save the entire state education system from collapse.

    The kids are already rebelling against this insane system. Why not join them? En masse, you're too valuable to the Govt for them not to have to listen.

    Control freaks are **** scared too. Of challenge and things getting out of control. If you threaten them with that (industrial action, demonstrations, etc) they'll just go into habitual chaos response pattern: (over)react to bring things 'under control' and dig heels in. Stalemate. But what about if you come in from left of field? Just carry on in your jobs, doing what needs to be done with reason, purpose, and foresight, taking unilateral action school by school to create enough latitude in the curriculum to start intiatives that are going to solve your problems? They'll not know quite how to respond. Stick to your principles and intentions long enough to start showing the benefit and they'll have a hard job arguing with what you're doing.
     
  4. What an awful thread. Shall we cane each other and see how we like it? Shall we hurt each other? Come on, people are talking about using it on children. If someone in the staffroom is annoying you or saying aomething nasty, are you going to wack thm with a cane? I think not. So lets not be hitting the children then, shall we?


    ooooo....i'm all ranty now! apologies everyone!!!
     
  5. My year five teacher (Mr Brown) was also our school cricket coach.

    He managed to kill 2 birds with one stone.

    When walloping one of us with the 1 yard blackboard ruler on the backside, he demonstrated the correct techniques for batting shots!
    The cut shot was quite painful, as was the pull shot, and unless the legs were kept together a drive could be very dangerous. (True story)

    As for usernameinuse, I wouldn't dream of giving advice to a special ed teacher working in different circumstances to a regular classroom. I am not qualified to do so nor do i spend working day with special students.
    Why cant you see that your advice to regular classroom teachers is similarly unrealistic?
     
  6. re

    re New commenter

    That is appalling. Was it year five (modern counting system) or fifth year (old). If the former, it is criminal.

    If corporal punishment worked, why was it repeatedly administered to a few people? And yes, I've heard about it deterring others, but so does a phone call/ letter home to parents about their child's behaviour.

    We should be setting an example. If we set that of 'I'm bigger than you, therefore I shall hit you' what sort of society will that encourage?
     
  7. "And yes, I've heard about it deterring others, but so does a phone call/ letter home to parents about their child's behaviour."

    Hah!
     
  8. alexmcneice

    If you think that children have the same reasonable, argumentative skills as adults then you're crazy...or very poorly informed.
     
  9. Maybe alexmcneice should read the rest of the thread, rather than just resorting to simplethink.

    ".... but so does a phone call/ letter home to parents about their child's behaviour."

    How does this work ? Is a child so worried about the risk of a coronary from laughing too much that they'll behave ?
     
  10. I didnt find the year 5 walloping at all appalling. It was very instructive (re batting technique- perhaps that is why we Aussies play cricket so much better the Poms).

    It was the fifth year at school (11 years of age).It wasnt criminal at all- caning was permitted then Queensland 1974) and was a very effective sanction.

    I agree that sometimes letting parents know that their little angel is really a little devil at school can be effective. The parents may then give the little horror the walloping that we arent permitted to dispense.Secondly, not all sanctions (including corporal punishment) work with every student This is all the more reason why we shouldnt abolish ANY sanction (read corporal punishment) :- a suite is necessary. A "one size fits all" approach doesnt work. (and i recognise that as a student some kids werent deterred by the cane either, instead they stoically withstood it as a badge of honour).
     
  11. I had a pal who was a devil at school and was beaten frequently. He tells me that one day he was standing outside his Head's office waiting for another thrashing when he decided that he had had enough and that all he had to do was behave and it wouldn't happen anymore. So that's what he did. He has grown up to be a successful charming and well rounded adult. Nowadays he would undoubtedly have been classified as SEN but it wasn't invented then.
     
  12. 269- autismuk-

    I do not want violence at home

    I do not want violence in the street

    I do not want violence in my school

    I think that is pretty simple thinking, but sometimes that is what you need.
     
  13. You might not have noticed it but you've got it whether you want to or not.

    If you bothered to read the rest of the thread you might be able to make an intelligent contribution.
     
  14. I rarely read threads 28 pages long since everyone repeats themselves. And I am only saying what I think. I don't agree with the topic so I said so. End of story. You really have no reason to have me hung drawn and quartered for voicing an opinon surely. But I don't really care to talk to you anymore, so I bid you adieu!

    Have a nice day
     
  15. Interesting how an anti violence person gets so aggresive so quick IMO LoL
     
  16. *looks at post*

    not being aggressive! Look I will show you with my big bear hug!!!!

    *SQUEEZE!*

    Did you like your hug!!!!
     
  17. "I do not want violence at home

    I do not want violence in the street

    I do not want violence in my school"


    When you realise you're spouting nonsense, alexmcneice thinks the answer is to use repetiton to persuade us all.

    You're speaking like a poitician...or a wolly headed liberal...

     
  18. "Yes I think that's the way forward, and I certainly wasn't suggesting (as oldandrew seems to imagine) that nothing is done to address the problem"

    I didn't say you were suggesting doing nothing.

    You are suggesting doing nothing that actually works.
     
  19. "I rarely read threads 28 pages long since everyone repeats themselves."

    Maybe you should. It's quite an interesting discussion. The worst bit is the title.

    "And I am only saying what I think. I don't agree with the topic so I said so."

    Yes, well, it's not quite as simple as that. You say you don't want violence in the school ; I would point out you already have it.

    "End of story. You really have no reason to have me hung drawn and quartered for voicing an opinon surely."

    Nope. I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out the simplistic nature of your argument. "I don't agree with the topic".

    "But I don't really care to talk to you anymore, so I bid you adieu!"

    Bye then.
     
  20. "Interesting how an anti violence person gets so aggresive so quick IMO LoL"

    Yep. I just find that level of argument depressing. Most of the "complete" anti arguments on the thread are thoughtful and intelligently argued. It's a shame alex can't keep the standard up.

    PS: We've got a mention in the TES today :)
     

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