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Bring Back Selection...

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by MilkyBar Kid, Nov 10, 2007.

  1. Oh, and didn't see you asking the op about chairs being thrown about the classroom. Does the op and his school have the items you asked for in post 18?

    Still burting because virtually everyone finds ite practically useless?
     
  2. Why personalise this, bj? Why let your own rather silly prejudices bubble up yet again?

    I am merely asking what behaviour management strategies you are using, since they aren't working. If you and your school have implemented Better Behaviour Better Learning strategies, then they are obviously faulty and need to be revisited as a metter of national priority. If you're not, then that's obviously a factor in the debate.

    As for the op - well, chairs being thrown about is a very serious matter. Was this a "first disruption" in the class: if that's the case, then it's out the door and suspended, surely. If not - well, what strategies was the op using up to that point? Why weren't they working? How can the op be supported to put effective behaviour management strategies into place? Does the op use BBBL strategies?
     
  3. "The fact is that both teachers and schools sometimes fail in their MANAGEMENT of behaviour, and then blame it on the pupils."

    Sometimes, yes, this absolutely does happen. However, sometimes - more often, in my experience - you are stuck with at least one pupil who really just doesn't want to do any work. He/she doesn't care about getting a standard grade, because they're getting job with their dad anyway (or their dad has never worked so they don't see why they should). Their main priority in life is getting attention, winding people up and making sure that no-one else gets any work done either because that would be "pure boring". To deny that pupils like this exist, that they're all just desperate to learn deep down and could become model pupils with the correct behaviour strategies from their teacher - when the teacher's behaviour strategies are mysteriously working just fine for the other 29 kids - is just liberal idealism. Schools definitely have to come down harder on disruptive, nasty kids. Behaviour improvement strategies - no matter which ones you endorse - have to go hand in hand with strict, consistent and substantial consequences for serious misbehaviour. One without the other is just pointless and ineffective. To teach pupils that there will be no serious consequences for their disruptive behaviour - that they can essentially get away with it with no repurcussions - is the WORST behaviour management strategy there is.

     
  4. "Behaviour improvement strategies - no matter which ones you endorse - have to go hand in hand with strict, consistent and substantial consequences for serious misbehaviour."

    I absolutely agree, and have advocated this on these boards over and over again - and it is part of what Better Behaviour Better Learning advocates too.

    Perhaps disruptive pupils upset the other 29 because teachers and schools do NOT manage disruptive behaviour in this way, and neither do they manage positive behaviour through rewards and praise. Is it acceptable to allow a pupil to disrupt a class for 10 minutes - I don't think so. But what I'm trying t get at is - what are the strategies that are failing to work? And if those strategies are the nationally advocated strategies in BBBL, then we should engage in a debate on the whole policy. On the other hand, if it's not BBBL at fault, then what can teachers do better to empower themselves?
     
  5. Ray: you started off by personalising it. Why not ask the op as I asked, wrt chairs being thrown about, literally or metaphorically? Why did you not do that earlier, you had plenty of opportunities? Instead, you got tore right into my post, with the heavy implication that I do not manage my classes. Why do you do this? are you still hurting from the panning ite took all that time ago? Methinks yes, based on objective evidence.

    Are you realistically claiming that a kid throwing chairs about can be dealt with in a few moments? No, me neither. I think you should be the new discipline tsar because you obviously have the answers to all questions discipline.

    Who said my behaviour management wasn't working? Perhaps that's what you wished you had read rather than what you actually read.

    I have excellent behaviour and discipline in my classes, and that's why my pupils' grades are so high.

    Perhaps, if ite was more effective we wouldn't have so many student, probationer and newly-qualified teachers complaining about their lack of ability to cope with nutjob pupils who are at school under the pretence of being educated.

    I'm surprised I take you seriously.
     
  6. bj - disruptive pupils are a common subject of your threads - indeed, you call them "ferals" and "neds". Don't be surprised if someone comes back at you on it.

    I'm simply asking - what is it that is going wrong? Is BBBL as a national policy failing? Is it insufficient ITE (which, remember, is 50% the responsibility of schools)? Or a lack of CPD? Or is it what teachers are doing - or not doing - in their classes?

    It may well be a combination of all of these. The lazy way out, it seems to me, is to blame the children and their backgrounds.

    And you take me seriously because, despite all the nonsensical abuse I get from you, I actually talk a fair bit of sense. You know it's true.
     
  7. >Don't you know how to assert your authority? Why do you allow one pupil to disrupt 29 others for ten minutes before you send them to the PT, or SMT, or the time-out room? >
    Are you going to dodge the chairs, fists and feet to get them to a time out room?
    What do you do when you are told in no uncertain terms that the disruptive child/children HAVE NOT to be sent to any member of the management team, or be put out of class?
    The child knows this as does every other child in the class. When he is ignored, he shouts and swears for attention. If other pupils look at him, he shouts abuse at them and throws anything he can lay his hands on. Whilst this is going on in P7, an equally challenged child is brewing up in P6 and another in P5 and maybe a few more in each of the other classes. Some of these unruly children are related and no doubt formulate plans of how and when to misbehave. The HT, DHT and principle teachers cannot be in every class every day. They do not want to be disturbed every day. But guess what? Neither do the teachers or the other 20 odd children in the classroom who are terrified to open their mouths.
    Behaviour management strategies??? The best one is to remove these children. Permanently.
     
  8. Believe me Rayczar, I simply do not take you seriously.

    Feral children are not a common topic of my threads, I think I've started about two in my entire time on here. I posted my opinion and you have extrapolated 1000% from it: you made the wrong assumption that I do not control my classes, nor have any "strategies" to deal with discipline issues.

    Feral, ned, underprivileged children - call them what you like - are not having their needs met in mainstream schools. On top of all that, they are hugely disruptive to normal - call them what you like - kids. A double whammy.

    I will remind my SMT tomorrow that they are 50% responsible for ite: I wonder what kind of response I will get, almost certainly the **** off type.

    You imply that disruptive behaviour is partly the teacher's fault. You can be the best teacher in the world or the worst teacher in the world and it won't stop a kid telling you to **** off. Now, tell me that's the teacher's fault. Cue rant about "ambience" of the classromm created by the teacher by poor old Ray, because he's right about everything you know, and that's why he's in ite.

    Nothing changes, does it?
     
  9. Oh dear, bj: what a tormented soul you are.

    "What do you do when you are told in no uncertain terms that the disruptive child/children HAVE NOT to be sent to any member of the management team, or be put out of class?"

    Right. Now we're getting to the point. So some schools do NOT adopt BBBL strategies as school policy: if they DON'T do what is recommended, why is that the PUPIL'S fault?

    "I will remind my SMT tomorrow that they are 50% responsible for ite: I wonder what kind of response I will get, almost certainly the **** off type."

    Given that student teachers spend 50% of their time in schools - and probationers spend 100% of their time in schools - and given that schools write crucial reports on them for the two years of training, in what way are schools not at least 50% responsible for ITE? You can tell everyone to **** off if you like, but it doesn't change reality.

    "Feral, ned, underprivileged children - call them what you like - are not having their needs met in mainstream schools. "

    So why are schools failing to do this? Have a listen to Shami Chakrabarti on this week's Any Questions: she makes a valid point originally made by UN Special Reporter on children, who pointed out that in many other countries, when children are disaffected by school, they ask what's wrong with the school; in England (read the UK) we ask what's wrong with the child. That may be a sweeping generalization, but it's a point well made.

    To address that, though, we need to have a level-headed debate about the issue: however, bj, when it comes to me, I'm afraid you're incapable of that level of objectivity.
     
  10. Oh, dearie me, Raybes, you really do believe in yourself, don't you. I enjoy our wee verbal jousts and so do you, you probably think you are "winning" some sad game. Whatever.

    If you think schools are 50% responsible, then jolly good for you! Bravo! Hurrah!

    It seems, maturity, that if your school has not adopted BBBL then you have to go straight to the SMT and strongly advise them to do so, and pronto! Abracadabra, all your behaviour problems become a dim and distant memory. Kinda makes you wonder before we had strategies, doesn't it. Alternatively, hire Raymags as a consultant for a day and he will sort out all your discipline problems.

    And the UN point is indeed well made, but silly wee me doesn't know what it is. Can you put the point in simple words that I can understand, Raytsar? All pupils get shedloads of support in every school and for many of them it will be the most supportive environment they will ever be in throughout their lives. Doesn't stop schools improving, but when schools are supportive and effective for 95% of pupils, I'd say that was a resounding success. The 5% who can't hack it would be better off in a different, even more supportive environment.

    And you still haven't told us all why you thought my discipline skills were wanting. And why you picked on me X days after the op? What you read, what you wished you had read = two different things! What a tormented soul you are!

    You are turning into potatoes or aber as a figure of fun - go and have a butcher's at the Future of Discipline thread.

    I look forward to your response as I just love some hot-headed debate.
     
  11. "if your school has not adopted BBBL then you have to go straight to the SMT and strongly advise them to do so,"

    Not my point at all, bj, though when has that ever stopped you? My point is that schools which have problems with disruptive pupils are either NOT using BBBL strategies, in which case we ought to examine what's going wrong, or they ARE using BBL strategies, in which case we ought to re-examine them as a matter of national priority.

    "And you still haven't told us all why you thought my discipline skills were wanting."

    Not at all. What I was (forcefully) asking you was what strategies you were suing which you felt weren't working with the "ferals" and the "neds". I think it's a little disingenuous of you to get steamed up by my language while you ritually abuse your pupils, but no matter.

    "Doesn't stop schools improving, but when schools are supportive and effective for 95% of pupils, I'd say that was a resounding success. "

    Yes, I agree - but there's room for a 5% improvement.

    "You are turning into potatoes or aber as a figure of fun - go and have a butcher's at the Future of Discipline thread."

    I think not, but it doesn't matter. You will react as you always do. And what would I learn from that thread that isn't in this thread?
     
  12. Were you being forceful? I didn't notice. What was it that Denis Healey said about Lord Howe?

    So, why did you pick on my responses to the op, and not attack the op as quickly as you did me? We never got an answer to that one, did we? React? Nope, 'fraid not. Sounds like you're the Patty. Gawd, you must have been absolutely bealing since that ite thread. All that time. All that pent up frustration.

    I look forward to meeting you in my school in your new, self-appointed, role of discipline czar.
     
  13. It really is pointless having any sort of debate with you if you're going to whine about me picking on you instead of everyone else. Your inability to engage with the subject - the extent to which BBBL might be failing - is clear. I'm not going to indulge in your silliness any more.
     
  14. Oooh, get her!
     
  15. Excuse my ignorance - what is BBBL?
     
  16. "Better Behaviour, Better Learning" - national policy document on behaviour management since, I think, 2002.

     
  17. Ah right. Thanks.
     
  18. MilkyBar Kid

    MilkyBar Kid Occasional commenter

    Looks like this thread has generated a bit of heat... good, about time. To respond to a couple of points, flying chairs? yes I've experienced it though not at my present school, but we all know what happens, pupil is excluded, back in after 5 or 10 days on a timetable with strict instructions not to throw chairs at the nice teacher! This week 2 boys (2 hefty S4s, no way was I getting involved!)were fighting in my class, they were both removed and what happened, they were sat down and told to write about their experience, is this a sick example of "Literacy across the Curriculum"! The problem with effective Behaviour Management Strategies is the lack of support in place to follow them through. Time Out in a lot of schools now operates within faculties, so in practice S2 or S3 neds will be removed from their class and taken to your Higher class where he's expected to sit and be quiet. In other words he now can disrupt 2 classes whereas in the past at least he only had one class to ruin. Most schools have clear discipline policies that look good on paper but in practice the unwritten rule is 'deal with it yourself' otherwise it's a sign of weakness. Maybe I'm just a bit old fashioned, but I feel for the good kids that genuinely value education who are losing out in the current climate.
     
  19. I agree with your posting MBk I have taken it upon myself to try to engage the SMT, in my school,with classrom (in)discipline issues. I don't care what their perceptions are of me. They have the power to deal with the problems . Mostly they choose not to. However I want them to feel some of the pressure.
     
  20. "The problem with effective Behaviour Management Strategies is the lack of support in place to follow them through."

    "Most schools have clear discipline policies that look good on paper but in practice the unwritten rule is 'deal with it yourself' otherwise it's a sign of weakness."

    In other words, the strategies ARE there, but seem not to be put into place effectively. Therefore, at some level, schools are not doing their jobs, yet we have threads on here blaming the pupils and saying that they should be excluded from mainstream, which isn't putting into effect the policies which could keep these children there.

    Am I reading this right? Is so, why aren't we sticking up for these pupils by putting the stategies into effect ourselves and insisting that management does too?
     

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