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Bring Back Selection...

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by MilkyBar Kid, Nov 10, 2007.

  1. MilkyBar Kid

    MilkyBar Kid Occasional commenter

    ...though this time it should be based on behaviour, not on academic ability. Education should not be considered a right for all and sundry irrespective of their behaviour but a privilege for those who know how to behave. No doubt many will say that the reason little Jimmy throws chairs around the classroom is because his parents are druggies or he has an attention disorder, yep possibly, so educate him in a seperate school where he can get the attention he needs. Rant over! I've had a bad week.
     
  2. MilkyBar Kid

    MilkyBar Kid Occasional commenter

    ...though this time it should be based on behaviour, not on academic ability. Education should not be considered a right for all and sundry irrespective of their behaviour but a privilege for those who know how to behave. No doubt many will say that the reason little Jimmy throws chairs around the classroom is because his parents are druggies or he has an attention disorder, yep possibly, so educate him in a seperate school where he can get the attention he needs. Rant over! I've had a bad week.
     
  3. Hear,hear. I've had a bad week too.
     
  4. ScotSEN

    ScotSEN Senior commenter

    I agree up to a point. While little Jimmy's behaviour is at crisis point then he should not be in mainstream. However there should much greater support for him in mainstream so that either he never gets to the crisis or once the special school has done its job he has the chance to return and fit in with his mainstream peers. By resources I mean TRAINED staff and not some mum who fancies the job of auxiliary cos it fits in with her kids being at school. There also needs to be training for all staff within schools. Given the supposed aim of inclusion I am saddened by the lack of training and understanding not just of children with behavioural issues - but a wide variety of ASN.
     
  5. Surely part of being a teacher is that we have to deal with behavioural issues, which very often are tied in with poor lessons/materials. I find it a challenge to help pupils whose behaviour is beyond a joke and to give them work which engages them enough to settle down a bit. Not always realistic I know, but surely they all deserve the chance of the same standards of education. We are well enough paid and have enough pros in the job (ie. good holidays and working hours) to put the effort in and deal with anything.
     
  6. ScotSEN

    ScotSEN Senior commenter

    You have a point chinchilla but it comes down to training for ALL staff and I'm not sure that there is enough either pre and post qualification. Some things are really simple and don't take up time and once someone tells you seem so obvious but others require more labour and preparation and staff in mainstream don't always get the support to get things in place. EG when dealing with a child with autism tell him/her what to do in the order you want it done eg after you've washed your hands you'll get lunch not you can have your lunch once you've washed your hands. If they don't seem to understand the initial instruction our natural instinct is to change what we have said to simplfy it. That doesn't work for a child with autism - change the words you've changed the instruction and they are back to the beginning as far as trying to follow it is concerned. Just repeating the instruction verbatim can really help them. They can often take longer to work things out so its important to give them the time. Simple doesn't take a lot of time! However a visual timetable which is also very helpful is more time consuming. Someone has to download and prepare the symbols and it does take time to set it up everyday/lesson.

    Children who have communication difficulties - for a variety of reasons - find negative instructions difficult to follow and respond much better to positives eg say Jimmy walk! rather than don't run Jimmy!
     
  7. Interesting thread so far.
    Do those of you who have posted so far, work in a school where outbursts and disruption are a rare occurrence?
    I worked in a 300 pupil primary school in a very deprived area (65% free school meals) and some of the problems staff had to face day and daily, were unbelievable. Only seeing was believing.
    Children literally climbed the walls ( sitting on chairs feet stomping up the walls) threw chairs at any adult within their sight, shouted and swore at every available opportunity and spent their whole time in school disrupting every class possible. In an open plan school, this was not very hard. Playground was a battle ground ( We couldn't possibly keep these children in at break time. They had rights too. They needed fresh air and exercise just like the other pupils.) Children such as these should not be allowed in mainstream school. They are depriving every other child of a decent standard of education. The stress they put staff under was intolerable and the standard of their own education was non existent. Parents were frequent visitors as were the police and educational psychologists . This scenario happened every day of the week. Not one day passed when one child did not disrupt either the upper, middle or lower school. Sometimes, all 3 areas were on the go at once. There were only about 12 children responsible for these acts, but they thrived on the response of those who could not resist their signs of bravado.
    I also worked in a 400 pupil primary school where children came from working, middle class homes and where classroom disruption was almost non existent. No matter their home background, all children adhered to the school rules and worked in a happy environment free from violent outbursts and outrageous language. Sadly, the staff in both schools were paid the same salary.
    I therefore agree with Milkybar kid. Those who do not behave do not deserve to be in the same environment as those who do.
    Bring back special schools where children with obvious needs can be catered for by qualified and fully trained staff - with an appropriate staff to pupil ratio.
    No one should have to suffer at the hands of these seriously troubled children, least of all their peers.
    We should stop trying to treat everyone as though they are the same or equal. They are not. Some children are able to abide by the rules, give of their best and enjoy their school experience, irrespective of their home background, and others are not. Some children prosper in mainstream school and others don't. It is time the needs of the majority were addressed and schools were given back to the pupils who deserve to be there.
     
  8. MilkyBar Kid

    MilkyBar Kid Occasional commenter

    "It is time the needs of the majority were addressed and schools were given back to the pupils who deserve to be there."
    Well said maturity, I live in hope that something will eventually be done. I work in secondary and it sickens me how some 1st years arrive with serious behaviour issues, flagged up for us to be aware of, in other words, brace yourself for the worst. These pupils will go throw the motions of punnies, detentions, a referral list the length of your arm, timetabled, SRG, ARG, behaviour support, and at the end of it they'll still be there in 4th year totally disaffected with education simply running the clock down till they leave. In the process they have spent the last 4 years doing serious damage to the education of their fellow peers. Is this not what happens in most schools, or am I just a cynic...
     
  9. Can I just add that I work in special and am sick fed up of parents 'diagnosis chasing' as an explanation for their child's behaviour. Yes they may have autism or adhd ar whatever, but they still have to be raised in a home where morals and other people's rights are respected. This includes not bad-mouthing the teachers in from of the children - had one who told me 'my mother has an appointment at (ed HQ) this morning - she's going to make sure you have to become a better teacher'. I know that tomorrow I will go in and have at least 2 parents blaming their child's behaviour on the diagnosis rather than their poor parenting - which I'm afraid in these cases it actually is. Maybe selection for parents???
     
  10. I agree with the milky bar kid, if children's parents are druggies their children should go to special schools where they have specially trained staff to deal with children like that. Well said.
     
  11. ScotSEN

    ScotSEN Senior commenter

    I too work in ASN and part of my job is to work with Ed Psychs to consider future placements for my pupils. The children I deal with have a wide range of ASN. Some are not nor will ever be children who will cope in a mainstream setting. Some because of physical and developmental issues and others because of behavioural reasons. There is another group who could cope in mainstream. However there is definately a post code lottery and when I am considering what to recommnend I do consider the child's local school as some schools are much better than others in dealing with children with ASN. I suspect there are a number of factors. Attitude of SMT, attitude of individual staff and how much guidance/experience staff have had in dealing with ASN. However to say that children of druggies should be in special schools is far too simplistic! Some children with behavioural issues do respond to being with 'normal' children especially if the staff are willing, able and given the support to help them. Excellent although ASN schools are the one thing we can't provide is interact with 'normal' children!
     
  12. why should teachers have to put up with behaviour from children who simply don't want to learn? We're not trained for this, get teachers who are specially trained to work with these children in special schools and don't disrupt the learning of normal pupils.
     
  13. You're quite right Scotsen, why should teachers have to put up with behaviour from children who simply don't want to learn? We're not trained for this, get teachers who are specially trained to work with these children in special schools and don't disrupt the learning of normal pupils.
     
  14. Totally agree with chinchilla.

    We are teachers of children - not teachers of the nice, well-behaved, "normal" (whatever that means) children who never cause us any trouble, with all the others being locked up somewhere else where they won't disturb out cosy world.

    Yes, we may need training. Yes, we may have to work harder to reach all these children. But that's not their fault.
     
  15. Thanks Ray for agreeing with me. I feel that too many teachers these days don't want anything to do with badly behaved pupils. I work in a 1300 secondary which has a lot of problems (as do all schools), but it is part of my job to deal with and teach pupils with behavioural problems. If I simply refused to teach them or tried to fob them off on someone else then I would be failing them and would be letting myself down as a teacher.
     
  16. There are many apparently valid ways of looking at this and they can be polarised as follows.

    1 - Many/all poorly behaved kids should be removed from mainstream because they just can't handle it. Education is doing them no favours by accommodating them mainstream, and much of the time the only real thing they learn is that that can get away with murder before any real sanctions are taken against them or their parents. They will also take this attitude into adulthood with them and all the problems that that involves.

    2 - The effects on the other 29 pupils in your class who, regardless of background, simply want to learn. What they should learn is that there are consequences to everything you do and that if you behave like a bampot then you'll, quite simply, be treated like a bampot.

    In my opinion, the needs of the 29 far outweigh those of the one and what to do with them is a no-brainer for me: get rid. Discipline is linked to attainment and if schools adopt a much tougher approach then watch attainment rise.

    As a teacher I am constantly fed up taking an easy wage as an overpaid babysitter.

    Nect time you spend ten minutes of a lesson dealing with a disruptive pupil, ask yourself what the rest of the class could have learned in that time, and if you really met their needs. And remember, ten minutes is around 20% of a lesson, can you really afford to spend all that attention on someone like that?

    And, I didn't even use the word "ned" once.

    Lunch calls.
     
  17. I don't know why you have to spend ten minutes dealing with disruptive pupils, bj. Have you never heard of assertive discipline? Do you spend your time arguing with pupils? Don't you know how to assert your authority? Why do you allow one pupil to disrupt 29 others for ten minutes before you send them to the PT, or SMT, or the time-out room? Does your school not have a staged or hierarchical system of classroom sanctions? Are there sufficient rewards in place so that the good behaviour of the 29 others can be used as a model and as an incentive?

    The fact is that both teachers and schools sometimes fail in their MANAGEMENT of behaviour, and then blame it on the pupils.

     
  18. Don't bloody well patronise me, Rayboy. You know fine well what I'm talking about, and so will most others on here.

    Perhaps you've been out of teaching for too long, at jordanhill ivory towers?
     
  19. Ooo-er: patronising? Moi?

    No, bj, I'm honestly interested in what strategies you use when dealing with behaviour management. "Better Behaviour, Better Learning" is supposed to be standard practice, and it's based on strategies which have clearly been seen to work in a whole variety of situations by HMIE, who aren't exactly woolly-headed liberals. So either you're putting them into practice and they're failing - which has serious implications for national policy - or your school is doing something else which isn't working. I think the answer is important.
     
  20. You tell us all what you do, Ray.

    Go on. You know you want to.
     

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