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Bring back corporal punishment campaign

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by Captain Carwash, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. Fair comment Ray.......kinda!
    I'm sure you see loads of classes, and i'm sure you speak to lots of PT's. I'm even sure that some of them blow some smoke your way about the pastoral function of your visits. I'm just still not convinced that you can seriously claim that these visits give you a good idea about what's going on in the classroom on a regular basis.
    We have a retired DHT (the best one unfortunately) who's been back in the school this year doing supply in his subject (our DHT's haven't taught for years). And, although he's been working in the school for donkey's years, he's saying that he had no idea about what it was actually like for the day to day teachers. He had forgotten how hard it was, and is in fact frustrated with the SMT hisself now!
    If this great DHT can claim that he didn't have a good idea about what's going on in the classroom, and he was IN the school - then how can you tutors somehow have this great knowledge?
    Perhaps you are trying a little too hard to justfiy yourself?
    Perhaps we will just never agree on this!
     
  2. I think the sarcastic phrase "great knowledge" - which I have never used - shows the disparaging mindset you arrived with. In that case, we probably never will agree.
    You tend to forget that this great DHT may have been IN the school - but that doesn't mean he talks to the teachers. Remember, I DO talk to teachers - the ones in school when I visit, do in-service, etc., AND the student teachers who come back and, believe you me, tell me exactly what it's like in the classroom, because they look to me for guidance on how to deal with it. It would be good if you actually thought a little about what the job of an ITE tutor is before you jump to the conclusion we're out of touch - we are probably more in touch than most.
    And given the way in which my students value the advice they receive from me, often more highly than the advice they receive from serving teachers in school, I have absolutely no need whatsoever to justify myself.
     
  3. Remember, I DO talk to teachers - the ones in school when I visit, do
    in-service, etc., AND the student teachers who come back and, believe
    you me, tell me exactly what it's like in the classroom, because they look to me for guidance on how to deal with it.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Yeah yeah I believe you. And of course your novice teachers look to you for guidance thats what you're being paid for isn't it? On the other hand I don't think I'm alone in thinking that flitting from school to school and classroom to classroom will just give you little taster sessions on what is actaully going on. Thats the whole point Ray you are not as qualified to speak because your role is no longer a teacher, teenagers are no longer your responsibility because you don't deal with the same one on a long term basis, instead you have a class of mature, willing students who I doubt will give you the issues and actaul teacher will have to deal with.

    And the fact that you keep repeating that you've been in the job for 30 years is telling, just because you keep repeating it doesn't make your assertion to be any more convincing!


     
  4. I teach teachers - that is a teaching role. And in order to do that I need to be a damn sight more up to date than someone who is so obviuosly stressed by not being able to do the job she incorporates the adjectve in her bloody username.
    Halfwit.
     
  5. The whole "crit" lesson is a farce.
    Bottom line is that the most troublesome pupils are removed - despite your protestations from the teaching college Ray.
    Also, we have a student just now who has a crit next week. She is having it with the same class she had her previous crit with - and she did really well. Why would a tutor timetable a visit to see the same class?! Ridiculous!
    Also, she has to have these daft and totally unrealistic lesson plans written down, with every activity acounted for - to the minute! Again, this is ridiculous!
    (I told her to teach her lesson - which will be grand as she's a really good teacher - and i ripped a page out of my planner, and told her to fill in the wee period 5 box, as that's what she'll be doing in about 4 weeks of real teaching time when she starts probation in August! For some reason she was reluctant......something about out of touch tutors.........)
     
  6. "Farce" is too strong, but I wouldn't necessarily disagree.
    The if it's a farce, it's because SCHOOLS are doing the WRONG THING. Pupils should not be removed from class. So, it's schools doing it wrong, and then saying "it's a farce". Mmmm...
    because it's sometimes impossible to arrange it for a different class. Or because it's a different tutor. Or because it's a different topic. Or because it's a different day at a different time of year and classes can be totally different from one day to the next... need I go on? Besides, your point is nitpicking and doesn't prove the "ridiculousness" of tutors visiting students.
    The lesson planner for a visit is lengthy because the tutor has to see all the thinking the student does about teaching and learning before the lesson so that they can identify why it goes well or badly. We need to see WHY the student has decided what to do and how to do it. The AUDIENCE for the plan is someone else - the tutor. The audience for the daily lesson plan is the individual teacher - and so it's fine for it to be less specific. In other words, they are two different documents and you are ridiculous for not realising that. Obviously, you know nothing about mentoring a student.
    No - something about her course requirements identifying the need for her to plan lessons in a way that reflects prinicples of teaching and learning - she knows your back of the fag packet approach is insufficient when her assessment against the standard for initial teacher registration is at risk. So in fact it's you who is out of touch with regard to the whole process of initial teacher education...

     
  7. Ray
    In an ideal world ALL pupils would be kept in the class for the observed visit, however this is unrealistic, as not ALL pupils are always kept in ALL teacher's lessons ALL the time - and at the end of the day, students need support - and the best chance to teach their class, so the removal off a pupil or 2 is both appropriate and necessary.
    My comment about the ridiculous lesson plan was more to do with the fact that the students need to list each activity - to the minute, rather than the justification for each teaching method. No real teacher plans every activity to the exact minute, as this is not realistic. To have students at college doing it is an unnecessary waste of their time.
    I'm well aware of the assessment criteria for the students, and my comment about writing it on a teacher planner space was tongue in cheek, and meant to highlight that although they (the students) need to justify to tutors what, why, and for how long what they are doing will last, it is a million miles removed from what will happen in their classrooms in a few short weeks.
    Turns out the tutor changed the crit lesson today to allow him to see a different class, but I stand by my comment that to see the same class is ridiculous. I understand that tutors are busy people, and have many different students to see, and obviously there are only so many periods in a day - but i find it surprising that a different class can not be found.
    Anyway, i accept that some tutors have a lot to offer their students. I just doubt that someone who has not been teaching "at the hard face" of it for many many years, is in touch with what teaching is like for the majority of teachers in the majority of lessons.
    On this final point i doubt we will ever agree.
     
  8. You have been giving the impression that pupils were removed ESPECIALLY for the visit of the tutor - now you seem to be suggesting that I think pupils who are usually out of the class (in behaviour units, with the PT etc,.) should be parachuted back in. I never said any such thing. The tutor should have a realistic imrpession of the class the student would ordinarily be taking.
    So I take it you tell HMIE and your Head Teacher that they are out of touch with teaching because they're not at the "hard face"? No? So why do you feel you have the right to have a go at me? Ah - that's right - university tutors are easy targets...
     
  9. "So I take it you tell HMIE and your Head Teacher that they are out of touch with teaching because they're not at the "hard face"? No? ..."
    Actually Ray I would say this to a good number I have encountered. Unfortunately they tend not to listen...
     
  10. Fear is not a motivator - it is an inhibitor to learning. As is stress, which perhaps explains why you seem to have learned nothing about dealing with children, Jane...
    _____________________________________________________________

    And just how would you know that I know nothing about dealing with children RAy? Would a teacher trainer like yourself have passed me if they did not think I could deal with children. And I have explained the significance of my username haven't I. I joined TES over 4 years ago when I needed to speak to other teachers online because I was in fact stressed as my teacher trainer (someone like yourself) was so unorganised that my placement school basically thought I was skiving, when in reality my tutor had given me incorrect info.

    And I suppose we could go on forever about the role of fear. Certainly I have had nothing but excellent behaviour from a boy when I told him I was going to send his behaviour log to his parents. On the other hand you exist in a nice university education faculty where the utopian theory says NO COERCION. Children should only do things if that is what they want.

    If stress was an inhibitor to learning then they would have got rid of exams a long time ago, but they haven't. Shouldn't be so stressful anyway since in your mind qualifications are meaningless. Just something you hug to yourself.
     
  11. How bitter of you to continue your diatribe against ITE tutors 4 years after you were slighted. How narrow minded of you to sneer about education faculties rather than engage with the research evidence from... schools.
    I notice you prefer to continue this personal assault rather than engage in a real debate in the solutions thread.
     
  12. How bitter of you to continue your diatribe against ITE tutors 4 years
    after you were slighted. How narrow minded of you to sneer about
    education faculties
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Well no I am not engaging in a diatribe against my tutors, you were the one who was so interested in my choice of username and I explained why I chose it and obviously that involved my uni tutors. I could just open up a new account so i could change my name but to be honest I could not be bothered since the only person who seems bothered about it is you. Well ok back to the debate, corporal punishment will never make a comeback because for the simple reason that striking anyone is unacceptable.
    _________________
    rather than engage with the research evidence
    from... schools.
    ______________________________________
    What schools carry out research evidence on corporal punishment? Ray you really do have some strange ideas!!!
     
  13. How silly of you to assume that I give a toss what the hell your username is...
    Errr... no... the research evidence that fear and stress are inhibitors to learning...
    Do try to keep up...
     
  14. Ray, it does seem that I am not the only one who thinks you are a bit of a . . .
    You really aren't doing yourself any favours.
    (1) Anyhoo, a much bigger inhibitor to learning than fear and stress is poor behaviour. Remove the few children that are incapable of behaving normally and watch attainment for the remaining 99.9% rocket.
    We, as taxpayers, spend absolutely loads accommodating these unfortunates and also permit them to have a severe detrimental on our own children's education. A nice wee double-whammy thet impacts on the vast majority, all of which have a right to an education.
    The simple fact that we have a few "special schools" is an admission that inclusion isn't working. Let's expand the number of special schools and get the message across that you go there if your behaviour is poor: then we create a culture of good behaviour and a real positive ethos in our schools.
    (2) It was interesting to read in the papers in the weekend that the introduction of comprehensive schools way back in the 60s has failed to close the attainment gap between working-lass and middle-class kids. The actual attainment of both sets has risen (are the exams easier?!) but the gap between them is just as big. It was in the Times but I don't have a link because I can't find it online.
     
  15. Is this what you were looking for? http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2508226.0.Comprehensive_schools_still_failing_to_close_class_divide.php
    We're not the only country either, if this is anything to go by:
    http://www.subnet.nga.org/educlear/achievement/ - it seems that they too are ignoring the obvious issue of poor student behaviour and laying the blame on teachers/teaching methods.
    Couldn't agree more.
    Additionally, perhaps the cause of all the fear and stress that is inhibiting some from learning is the poor behaviour of the minority?

     
  16. Yup, that's it, railroad.
    Nice last comment too.
     
  17. 'How silly of you to assume that I give a toss what the hell your username is...'
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why did you bring it up then?

    'rrr... no... the research evidence that fear and stress are inhibitors to learning...'
    ____________________________________________________

    In which case why have exams and other summative assessments not been eliminated then Ray? Why did I hear on the radio last week that prescriptions for anti-anxiety drugs have soared amongst the 15-17 year bracket in the run up to exams. Maybe they are stressed because they know that if they do not get the grades then they will be unable to apply to teacher training, but grades do not matter to you do they. And since your attitude is appalling on these boards I'm willing to bet that a number of your teaching charges will be stressing themselves out at the moment. Funny how the methods that us teachers are instructed to use to get pupils to learn fly in the face of the teaching methods in teacher training.
     
  18. Perhaps because exams aren't anything to do with learning, they're to do with social stratification.
    Proves my point, really, that stress inhibits learning. Are you used to shooting yourself in the foot?
    Actually, no, our students frequently use strategies we've used in class with their pupils: we model good practice. A former student who came to talk to them about induction speak about how she still sues the very first lesson I did with her three years ago because it's so effective.
    Perhaps it's YOUR experience that makes you so bitter about university tutors that you cal, yourself by a username as a result of something your tutor did years ago, but rest assured, our students certainly don't feel the same way you do.
    .


     
  19. Perhaps because exams aren't anything to do with learning, they're to do with social stratification.
    Proves my point, really, that stress inhibits learning. Are you used to shooting yourself in the foot?
    Actually, no, our students frequently use strategies we've used in class with their pupils: we model good practice. A former student who came to talk to them about induction speak about how she still uses the very first lesson I did with her three years ago because it's so effective.
    Perhaps it's YOUR experience that makes you so bitter about university tutors that you call yourself by a username as a result of something your tutor did years ago, but rest assured, our students certainly don't feel the same way you do.
    .


     
  20. Perhaps because exams aren't anything to do with learning, they're to do with social stratification.
    ___________________________________
    Well scrapping aside I do agree with you, we both know that formative assessment techniques contribute to good learning. Now if exams were scrapped to allow learning to progress how would the achievements of the pupils be recorded? Is a total rethink of the purpose of education needed since one of its essentials is to prepare pupils for employment?
     

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