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Best little country in the world......Unless you are RC and want to manage a football team

Discussion in 'Scotland - education news' started by gnulinux, May 12, 2011.

  1. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 extends only to England and Wales.
     
  2. Unfortunately,I think there have been far too many comments to the effect that NL does something to provoke this, to deserve it. That only serves to encourage the thugs who commit these assaults - it makes them believe that what they're doing is in some way justified.
    Even Richard Gough, ex Scotland captain, dared to suggest on the radio that NL is in some way to blame. Surely that counts as incitement?
    The actions of these thugs are disgusting, but even worse is the failure of those with influence to express their condemnation.
     
  3. Well said Suz. i have heard too many apologists for these embarrassing actions against a man going about his job.
     
  4. It's depressing. We are fond of the idea that we are a tolerant country here - 'a man's a man etc' . On close inspection, utter rubbish. There is a very ugly reality. Again, this was a lead item on national news. What must the rest of the world think? It's little wonder so many west of Scotland Catholics have traditionally stuck with Labour and are, ironically, pro union with England as a moderating influence on some of this country's worst instincts. Cardianal O'Brian might want to rethink his position on independence after the events of the last few months.

     
  5. Mercifully, north of Stirling and south of Lanark sectarianism is largely a non-issue.
     
  6. Dunno about the rest of the world, but I'm from a country that is acknowledged as one of the most tolerant on earth. My reaction to this appalling and shameful business is probably typically Canadian, and it's along the lines of, "Can't you see what you're doing to each other? Grow the **** up."
     
  7. Well said CanuckGrrl.
    Agree with Grunwald too. Couldn't believe when I went to Glasgow Uni and the first three questions were : What's your name, where do you come from, what religion are you. Those from the Glasgow area had q3 substitued for what school did you go to (to get same info)

     
  8. Freddie92

    Freddie92 New commenter


    You have obviously never been to Annan and its environs.
     
  9. Freddie92

    Freddie92 New commenter

    Apparently big DJ is in bother after his commentary on Real Radio where he claimed NL was kicking the so called 'fan'.
    Also so much for it being a West of Scotland problem. The only answer is to ban ALL marches and all that triumphalist nonsense, ban all paramilitary slogans, flags etc and ban all hate organisations and ones that discrimminate on grounds of religion. This could have major implications for Catholic schools, which are often wrongly in my opinion blamed for sectarianism.
    Sadly sectarianism was around long before Catholic schools were absorbed into the state.
    Arrest and fine people who break these rules. In 21st century Scotland a person should not be subjected to abuse due to their ethnicity, sexual orientation or religion.
    I also believe that anti-Catholic feeling is viewed as being institutionalised due to the Act of Settlement which has never been repealled.
     
  10. jonowen

    jonowen Occasional commenter

    do you mean St. Jo's by any chance?
     
  11. I agree that this is the worst the situation has been in a long time. However, I think the title of this thread is a bit of a sweeping statement. Celtic and many other Scottish teams have had numerous RC managers who have not received the same type of treatment as Neil Lennon. Maybe we need to look at the reason for this? Not everyone who hates Lennon does so because he is a Catholic.

    I don't want to get into a Catholic schools argument here but I have worked in both non denominational schools and one Catholic school (as a support teacher) and I have to say that I was quite shocked by some of the things I witnessed both from staff and pupils in the Catholic school. In non denom schools (well, the primary schools I have worked in anyway) pupils are not allowed to wear anything Rangers or Celtic related. In the Catholic school I worked in pupils were allowed to go around with Celtic jackets, bags etc and teachers openly talked about being Celtic fans, slagged Rangers fans in front of classes etc. Football should have nothing to do with religion in my opinion yet from what I saw this connection was accepted and even encouraged by some.
     
  12. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    Firstly, I am not condoning what has happened to NL in any way whatsoever and I recognise that he has been subject to a level of hostility that has not been experienced so far.
    However, as a previous post has stated, other managers who have came from the same background and worked in Scotland (not just Martin O'Neill) so it is reasonable to ask the question why NL attracts so much hostility. It is not because he is seen as successful as he (as yet) has not won anything as Celtic manager.
    It is obvious that NL is a confrontational character and is no shrinking violet. My own take on it is that he tends to deliberately say things that winds people up. Many senior managers within Scottish football like Criag Brown & Walter Smith share the view that he is, at least in part, responsible for the current atmosphere where referees are constantly questioned, fellow professionals are accused of non trying and he was believed to have racially abused 2 players at an old firm game a few months ago. As a player he was also accused of hurling sectarian abuse at Rangers supporters during an old firm game.
    I would also question the need for denominational schools. It is debatable whether denominational schools were the original cause of sectarianism but, in my view, they certainly help to perpetuate it. In my own experience, whenever I was in a Catholic school, I always felt a sense of tribalism due largely to the fact that in one case when I met my PT for the first time. I shook his hand and the first thing he said was "I know you're not one of us but we'll look after you". I can understand that a PT would want to get some background on a new member of staff but I didn't think (naively) my faith would be relevant.
    We can also argue about the rights and wrongs of the Act of Settlement but as this potentially only affects one person in every generation you have to ask what a person's priorites are if they believe that the policy of denying employment or promotion to qualified teachers because they don't belong to a particular club is acceptable. This issue affects many people every day.
     
  13. gnulinux

    gnulinux Occasional commenter

    'The Act of Settlement' - grow up. This is the 21st Century.

    First there should be no religious schools - no exceptions. These are just breeding grounds of hate.

    Our politicians should be seeing to that but they clearly don't have the guts for it.

    The PT that said "... your not one of us ... " should have been sacked for saying that.

    Victims of bullying don't bring it on themselves - although I have heard the opposite said too many times by unsympathetic Guidance teachers who simply can't be 4r5ed dealing with such problems professionally.

    Threads like this are interesting if only because lurkers with latent 'racist' tendancies are often forced to break cover.
     
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  15. Freddie92

    Freddie92 New commenter

    I am sorry but no matter anyone's opinion of NL - to claim he somehow brings bomb threats, death threats and assaults upon himself is simply being an apologist for bigotry.

    Martin O'Neill suffered far more abuse than either Strachan and Mowbray. Remember the uproar when he saluted his own fsupporters at Ibrox? The media wanted to lynch him and called for a ban!

    Also Artur Boruc was often highlighted as a troublemaker due to the act of blessing himself! This same act was once the reason a Partick Thistle player - his surname was MacDonald I think and he was American - was red carded making his way off the pitch after saying it was inciting the crowd. Thistle were playing Rangers at the time.

    There is something very, very wrong with our society if a man's background and religion can cause all of this. Lennon played in England for years with nothing like this sort of controversy.

    Yes he is outspoken as a manager, but so is Sir Alex Ferguson and Jose Mourinho who never had to put up with all of this.

    Indeed many of the 'team that drinks together wins together' have peddled a controversial myth about Aberdeen FC which has somehow been accepted. People like Gough and Goram have said Aberdeen only try against Rangers! This was not borne out by the stats! Celtic have put a few goals past Aberdeen in many games, but so have Rangers.

    It is apparent that whatever side of the religious divide someone sits it is going to affect their judgement and view of these matters. To ignore it is not good enough. To blame it on one man is not good enough. To blame it on Faith schools is not good enough (I never hear complaints about Jewish schools, do you?). No-one has answered why England has Catholic schools yet none of this sectarian bigotry.

    Many teachers have experienced bigotry in the workplace. I know Subman has experienced bigotry in North Glasgow before, and indeed a friend of mine once witnessed quite depressing comments made in a school in West Dumbartonshire. So it is a two way street and not the fault of Catholic schools. Indeed they pride themselves on tolerance and respect.

    The blame rests on us. ALL of us. We have to change the anti-Catholic sentiment in Scotland which still exists. Is it diminished from years gone by? I am unsure. Perhaps it is just hidden more since discriminatory employment practices are now illegal, though I am sure there may be the odd factory or office which still may be what used to be called 100%ers. Many sporting clubs still are (some well known golf clubs for example) and Rangers FC prided itself on such a policy up until the late 1980s.

    Turn your small mindedness away from blaming schools and look to the real culprits. The elements of our society who believe they are superior to Catholics and Irish immigrants (and I am sure Pakistani and Indian people also) due to their upbringing because that level of hatred and bigotry is not taught in any school Catholic or non-denominational. People who join anti-Catholic organisations should hold their heads in shame.
     
  16. Freddie92

    Freddie92 New commenter

    Actually it was not in a school, but a friend who suffered terrible abuse due to people finding out he was a Catholic.
     
  17. Freddie92

    Freddie92 New commenter

    Oh and one final point which blows the idea that it is only Neil Lennon that is targeted...

    Paddy McCourt and Nial McGinn were sent bullets in the post.

    Paul McBride QC and Trish Godman a former MSP were sent viable parcel bombs. So did they bring it upon themselves? Utter tosh.
     
  18. davieee

    davieee Occasional commenter

    Freddy,

    I think it is important to separate the 2 issues of NL & sectarianism although there is linkage.

    No one is denying there is sectarianism, in fact we all know it exists even NL. From my perspective there are times when it appears that he goes out of his way to deliberately wind people up. Does his behaviour warrant bullets etc. in the post? No way. Even so if you poke a bee's nest who do you blame when someone gets stung?
    You make the point about the level of abuse Martin O'Neill received in comparison to Gordon Strachan (who was attacked by a Celtic fan on the Parkhead pitch and wrestled to the ground as a player) / Tony Mowbray. I would argue that GS received more abuse from Celtic fans over the 3/4 years of his tenure because he was not "Celtic Minded" or didn't have "Celtic DNA".
    You mention the PT player McDonald who crossed himself. The fact was (there is TV footage to back this up) he made the act of blessing himself to antagonise the opposing team / supporters. If he wants to abuse his faith then let him. Boruc on the other hand was not cautioned for blessing himself but for making inflammatory gestures. Ham Shanking as it were. This was a caution that he accepted rather than go to trial and I dont think there would be a court in the land that would have found him guilty if it was for merely blessing himself.
    "Lennon played in England for years with nothing like this sort of controversy"
    Apart from the time Alan Shearer (must be a bigot by your reckoning) kicked him in the head.


    Faith Schools
    No-one says that faith schools are the sole cause of sectarianism but, in my opinion, they certainly help to perpetuate it by separating young people and by their discriminatory policies of the employment and promotion of teachers.
    "People who join anti-Catholic organisations should hold their heads in shame". Who do you mean? The Church of Scotland, The Free Church, The Mormons, Islam, Anyone that values free speech?
     
  19. Lynseymac

    Lynseymac New commenter

    I teach in a Catholic school and it is not a "breeding ground for hate". I find that statement hugely insulting. We have non-catholic pupils and staff members. The children learn about other world religions and know that they must respect people with different beliefs. Football tops are banned in my school.

    I've worked in Catholic and Non-Denominational schools. In all three Non-Denominational schools the staff made jokes about the pope and made other derogatory comments about Catholics.

    Catholic schools do not encourage sectarianism. I believe that children pick that up from their parents.
     
  20. I totally agree. Still we get the apologists coming on who try to defend the actions of the idiots by deflecting the blame. Scotland's shame right enough!
     

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