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Behaviour in Bog Standard schools compared to Grammars

Discussion in 'Education news' started by binaryhex, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. nervousned

    nervousned Senior commenter

    Not sure where you get that proportion from since it's about 30-35% now and a significant proportion of those go on (with high levels of debt) to get jobs that do not need a university education. Many of which would have been better served with a high quality apprenticeship.
  2. curlyk

    curlyk New commenter

    Ok. I have just spent ten minutes reading an article about Gove wishing he has spent more time on mental health issues of children in our schools , how Early years education is so important and that he is open minded about creating more Grammar schools (although he would always do what his PM told him to do !),then another article about Nicky Morgan in a coalition of Tories and Lib Dems against Grammar schools and now a I find a post by some teacher referring to children as feral ! What has the educational world come to !!! Tories admitting their mistakes and teachers talking about their students as if they were animals!!!!! . We all know Grammar schools are a massive waste of time and money ( as are Free Schools ! ),there is no evidence they do what May thinks they will do for society, they are a relic of the old tripartite system and should be binned ,not resurrected .Selection at 11 has even been discredited by leaders of private schools . Can I propose a well funded,comprehensive school system, sufficient support for SEND children, centres that help children with severe behaviour problems,well paid and well trained teachers,excellent Early Years provision with qualified teachers, an end to OFSTED tyranny and the proper regulation and control of all these so called academies run by businesses ( even ,dare I say it, a return of all those schools to LEAs ) Oh ! and an end to league tables. Yes ,I have just gone back to the system that existed when I started teaching in 1979 ! Or perhaps I have fallen down a rabbit hole and have been spending time with the mad March Hare .
    palmtree100, chelsea2 and dleaf12 like this.
  3. curlyk

    curlyk New commenter

    PS. I also object to the term `bog standard `being applied to schools.
  4. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Ooh that is a good point, clearly we missed that. It assumes that the highest achieving schools are indeed better at t&l when we know the truth is... that those children are tutored, parents buy them additional texts and resources, the students are often selected by postcode/house prices if not test and the students have access to a wide variety of experience that their money and parental social status affords. That coupled with the fact they are taught to the exam and voila!... Not a bog standard school.

    One of the troubles is schools have not been regulated to simply ensure the best for their intake, they have been set against each other, as we as teachers have been. It is no wonder we disagree so when we have lost the plot about bread and butter information transfer and experiential learning. It isn't bad enough that we are criticised by everyone and their dog but we then go on to tear shreds from each other... divide and rule certainly works to control educationalists and keep people in their place, so what can we do about it I hear you ask, well we can stop the back biting for starters and behave like the academics we are.

    I actually can't believe a poster was blaming teachers for their own situation on here the other day... how short sighted, nay misinformed. Apparently we are our own worse enemies since we do our best, go the extra mile and are not selfish enough to say no enough. We aren't the wolves of Wall St else we would be in the private sector *sigh. Now although I agree we all have to be realistic about what we can do I for one will not stop being me to fulfil someone idea of how I should or should not approach the work load assigned me, there is always a way and I will find what is best for me, while supporting both students and staff around me thank you very much, the blame does not lie at my door... nor at those of my colleagues for wanting the best for our students, it lies firmly with the DfE decision makers and national educational budget holders.
  5. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    Yes Yes yes yes yes!!!!!!!!!

    Lots of Parents ARE there, and need to be held accountable.
    Landofla likes this.
  6. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    I agree with lots of the posts on here.

    I am a TA, in a department with 3 other TAs, all departments have TAs in this school.

    We all agree we are nothing but a colossal waster of money.

    The head is ranting and raving about the "terrible" cuts coming our way, and we are just sitting there thinking so what?

    if the students totally ignore the teachers,lessons are bordering on anarchy and no one can learn, basically, what possible difference does it make if you have paid money for resources and support staff or not?

    Take away the resources and support staff, you lose nothing because no one is learning anyway, and will carry on not learning whether the school gets and extra 5 million, or gets a budget cut of 5 million.

    Those who want to learn for GCSEs do it at home with revision guides.

    So yes! I agree, get as many kids out of this cess pit as possible

    triple the number of grammar places, get as many able children as you can in there - and more important than ability, these are often the children who's parents support education, no one can seriously deny the behaviour overall in a grammar school is in a totally different league.

    Yes yes yes! get the special schools and prus back up and running, get the kids that can't possibly participate in mainstream out of mainstream to an environment where they can participate at their own level, and get the EBD schools back, it only takes one child with EBD to hold the education of 20 children to ransom all day every day, they should not be allowed to do this.

    And yes yes yes!! hold the parents accountable. Yes it is fraud to totally ignore and disregard the education being offered to you on a silver platter, and children need to be MADE to participate, ie we need actual discipline that works, and that includes holding parents accountable for the behaviour of their children.

    Of course there are traumatised children, deprived children, children in care, etc, but more than half the children I see every day are running amok, and almost all of them from affluent, middle class homes
    T34 and Laphroig like this.
  7. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Even if they are there, if they are in the socio economic group I suspect they won't be able to pay a fine. It's ridiculous to try to impose such penalties, they should enjoy being in school and want to be there and enjoy learning, as long as they are not SEN.

    We must ask ourselves why some people have no vested interest in conforming to the rules of society. On the whole I think it is because they have very little and by definition have very little to lose except their liberty. A reformed criminal was on TV the other day who said he used to relish prison as his housing needs and basic needs were met.

    Perhaps we should do away with compulsory education (certainly post 16) and let them fend for themselves if they think they are so clever, although no doubt the State will have to pick up the cost of that too.

    We have extended school leaving age at some cost and for what reason? If students want to train vocationally the sooner they get into the workplace the better... bring back NVQ's I say... or support them for those employers who still value them, while incentivising others. If young people really don't want to be in school why imprison them for a further 2 years to persecute teachers and disrupt learning? Perhaps we should allow them to leave earlier on the premise they will train/work and have the option to come back once they have learned the value of education.

    There is a huge gap between middle classed aspirational values and that of the under class and educators are working across the class divide to try to ensure all have the same opportunities when some do not want or value them, while others do not think they are good enough to benefit from them and others simply despise a system that they feel has made a living out of their failures for generations. What are we to do? *shrugs shoulders.
  8. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    What if they are all able? *once you take out the disruptive and SEN students.
  9. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    Then they can ALL go to "grammar" schools and the disruptive or genuine SEN pupils can go to special schools appropriate to their own needs (NB. not the same special schools that is..).

    What's in a name?? Just so long as the disruptive ones are gone.
    needabreak likes this.
  10. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Aha... Indeed... so we are back to taking out the disruptive ones out and leaving the rest as they are to work... what an excellent idea!
  11. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

    Why haven't OFSTED found your school yet? Sounds like a nightmare place.
    needabreak likes this.
  12. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    Tell that to Tony and Alastair.

    And to the millions of parents/ voters/ citizens who voted for them.

    • The latter group certainly didn't object to it.
    • Indeed they lapped it up.
    • Couldn't get enough of it and a wilderness of related lies, as I remember.
    • And that was the nice nuLabour Party.
    • Not, the Nasty Party
  13. emerald52

    emerald52 Star commenter

    My school had a very disruptive boy. Everything was tried and then he had a managed move. Same in next two schools. I spoke to his girl cousin a while later enquiring about him. He had been sent back to Pakistan to live with an uncle and aunt in a remote rural village. He was desperate to return. It will probably do him a lot of good. I worked in a boys' comp for many years. There were badly behaved children of all abilities and very well behaved ones. There is always a story attached to those being bad. I had one who snarled at most staff but was good with me. His caring mother was in tears at parents' evening.
    I promised her that he would turn out fine. He did and now manages a local restaurant. Sometimes there is one or two staff who can get through. My school regularly got the boys thrown out of the local very high achieving grammar school as well as private schools. Mostly we succeeded with them.
  14. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    This is the key, some schools are more able (like some teachers are more able). The more able schools in my view are those who can get difficult students to work. It is as simple as that. We have it all wrong thinking that the best schools are privately run or selective, they are simply the ones who have the most appropriate raw materials; and clearly for the most part they are completely incapable of turning around a "difficult or challenging" pupil and ensuring the creation of a decent law abiding citizen, they simply pass that job on to the better schools in my view, those who do not select by perceived ability at a given point or by family finances.

    My opinions may bore some people but I am entitled to them nevertheless, if you disagree with something it doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

    Here's to all those better skilled and more able teachers in comprehensive schools. You are valuable and key to the growth of a stable society.
    emerald52, eljefeb90 and wanet like this.
  15. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

  16. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter


    I think it's droppedoff due to tuition fees.

    Nonetheless, whilst we can quible over figures, the point remains. We used to need a small proportion of educated young people plus a load of 'factory fodder'. The fact that this has changed dramatically is beyond doubt.

    If we only fully educate the top 20%, as in the old grammar/secondary modern days, we will not produce a workforce educated enough to compete internationally. If anything, the split is probably the other way around.
    needabreak likes this.
  17. Doitforfree

    Doitforfree Star commenter

    When social services were looking for yet another school for our foster daughter they were not allowed to consider our local school as its Ofsted grading was 'Requires improvement'. The social worker told me this rather sadly as she said the school had done some excellent work with children in care before the LA put this rule in place. So they knew it was likely to do well for our girl, but she couldn't go there because someone who knew nothing about the school had already made that impossible. Crazy. The 'ggod' school she was sent to was absolutely useless.
  18. nervousned

    nervousned Senior commenter

    Then how come so many university educated people are doing jobs that don't require a university education if the split is the other way round?
  19. PeterQuint

    PeterQuint Lead commenter

    I think you've missed the point.

    I'm not saying 80% need to be university educated, or 50% or even 30%. I'm saying 80% need a decent education, and not be treated like factory fodder.

    Our economy can no longer run like that and continue to be internationally competitive.

    20%-25% used to go to grammar schools, not universities (i think the latter used to be around 5%, but I'd need to check on that).
    needabreak likes this.
  20. bevdex

    bevdex Star commenter

    Heavens - is there anyone who actually ever believed in "every child matters"? After many years in teaching, trying to get the best out of every pupil, I've just been told by my head that this phrase is passé. It appears that there are many who agree with her that some children matter more.

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