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Behaviour in Bog Standard schools compared to Grammars

Discussion in 'Education news' started by binaryhex, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    Having spent the first half of my career in Grammars and the second half in Bog Standard academies, I can say without a shadow of doubt that we need more Grammar schools, at least two in every city. Any bright child condemned to a Bog Standard school at the moment faces lesson after lesson of constant petty disruptions from feral students in their class. They need to be given the opportunity to learn ten times more and develop as a human by getting into a Grammar, away from those idiot students who cannot stay in seats, who constantly muck about and challenge their teachers, who constantly shout out.

    It is amazing to me that a few people here still think it's okay to condemn bright children, and especially those from poor backgrounds, to that kind of sh_ite and slow, stunted progress, when they could, in the right environment surrounded by the mostly well-behaved, calm classes I taught in Grammar schools, shoot for the moon. Shame on you for being so selfish!
  2. chelsea2

    chelsea2 Star commenter

    Well done for completely trashing the education of the hundreds of thousands of academically (and in other ways) successful students who were educated in good comprehensive schools.

    The lack of support for the return of grammar schools in those areas which do not have them speaks volumes.
    Laphroig, emerald52, strawbs and 9 others like this.
  3. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Sounds like the rantings of someone unable to cope with the demands of a comprehensive school. I'm not convinced that it's the teachers in comprehensives who should be ashamed.

    On the contrary I think they should be commended for meeting the needs of all their students, not just those most likely to succeed regardless of their input.
    Laphroig, emerald52, vannie and 6 others like this.
  4. schoolsout4summer

    schoolsout4summer Star commenter

    Rather than skimming off the top 10 - 20% of the brightest children and sending them to Grammars, leaving the rest to stew in a simmering pot of lessons disrupted by feral students, would it not be better to re-open Special Schools, Internal Exclusion Units, Pupil Referral Units etc to remove those disruptive children from mainstream education. It would be necessary to lower the current bar for entry to these facilities.
    This would be a much fairer way of doing things and would still allow the late developers to thrive academically, and additionally would allow reformed characters to re-enter mainstream education.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  5. blowswind

    blowswind Occasional commenter

    Yawn. How many times have you regurgitated this same argument?

    How do you measure how many places to allocate to The Chosen each year? Is it okay for a few not to get through and be condemned to bog standard hell?

    As suggested above, better to make provision for those who cause the problems than insisting on keeping them in the mainstream at all costs. Then we can get back to the aim of providing good schooling for everyone.
  6. lulu57

    lulu57 Lead commenter

    I had a smashing education in a bog standard comp. The teachers managed to compete successfully with Simon le Bon and David Bowie for space in my head and I actually learnt something!
  7. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    I agree so much... every school has them... kids intent on wrecking the education of others.

    They need to be removed and contained... no more of this wrecking other education to save money.
    drek, Laphroig, nervousned and 4 others like this.
  8. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Couldn't put it better. It all started to go wrong when schools where judged to be not as good if their permanent exclusion rate was high. They are forced to keep those disruptive children in lessons where even their needs aren't being met.

    If you take the disruptive elements out to specialist provision you can take time to look into any causal relationships and perhaps avoid them going on to disrupt society and potentially commit crime.
    wordsworth, drek, Laphroig and 6 others like this.
  9. dleaf12

    dleaf12 Lead commenter

    Wrong answer.

    Alas this is true... and it should not be so. BTW not only the bright children suffer this, so do the middle of the road majority and the less able kids too.

    "Feral student" does not equate to "less able student". One of the most disruptive, disrespectful and outright rude students I have ever had the misfortune to teach was regularly turning in grade 8 work before they were manage moved out.

    Yes they need to get away from the feral's, but not by moving schools. Move the Feral Kids. See @schoolsout4summer post

    THIS is how to to do it!!
    drek, katykook, nervousned and 2 others like this.
  10. drvs

    drvs Star commenter

    I think someone who is a bit demob happy and possibly "tired and emotional" at the time of posting ;)
    tosh740 and eljefeb90 like this.
  11. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Err yes.
    wanet likes this.
  12. Landofla

    Landofla Established commenter

    @schoolsout4summer so finally admit, publicly, that inclusion doesn't work?

    In my area there are tonnes of specialist schools and PRUs etc. So? Parents have the choice to send their kids to those or to mainstreams.

    I blame the parents. If your child is a repeat disturber of the education peace then you will be fined/face imprisionment. Well, that may be a little extreme but I would most certainly be calling on the parents to take responsibility. That should end the problems caused by children with no other problems, whereas the children with problems will continue to fill up the PRUs etc.

    More grammar schools isn't the answer if the question is: is the poor behaviour in comps ruining the education of the bright?
  13. binaryhex

    binaryhex Lead commenter

    I certainly agree that sending your bright child to the local Bog Standard should be considered child abuse. When I look back to my final schools, they were really terrible places for children who had potential to aim high and become brilliant; they had to endure day after day children who can't and won't and f*** the teacher.

    OFSTED really are to blame here. I've worked in schools which they inspected and rated 'Good' which were anything but - if only they saw the behaviour that existed when they weren't around. They don't see the behaviour because they didn't look hard enough. If they had examined the number of supply teachers we had, the staff turnover, the length some SLT had been in post - they would have all given OFSTED clues that poor learning was taken place. If they interviewed in confidence staff, that would tell them things too. Instead, they concentrated on data and observing classes that had been primed to keep quiet or else.

    No, more grammar schools are the only answer. If a parent feels for political or educational reasons that throwing their bright child in with the wolves to learn with feral students, that's up to them. But no one should stop the parents of bright children having the opportunity to study in calm, fantastic, high aspiration environments like I worked in during the early part of my career. All that ever seemed to be on the agenda in the Bog Standards were behaviour. Teachers didn't have the time or energy to get pupils to shoot for the stars.
    dunnocks likes this.
  14. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

    Excellent point.
  15. irs1054

    irs1054 Star commenter

    Three of the four schools that I worked in (as a permanent), were grammar schools turned comprehensive and the fourth was a secondary modern turned comprehensive. Of the grammar schools 2 out of the three had had a very hard time managing the change and the third still has issues according to OFSTED.

    Whilst working as supply, I worked in 50+ different schools. Whether a school manages to work, depends upon a very specific chemistry of social mix, parental (and hence child) attitudes to education generally and the school specifically and behaviour born of social conditions (amongst others).

    Generally, the higher the proportion of poor attitudes (amongst parents and children) the more difficult the school finds it to maintain the ethos necessary to work well. If the proportion is too high (whatever the reasons) then there are real issues. I have come across schools that have served very poor areas that have been able to work well, but the staff have obviously put in a lot of hard work to achieve this.

    Teachers in schools can't do it all, the very idea of a teacher "controlling" a feral student that regularly requires six police officers to "control" on a Saturday afternoon is absurd. (and I have been in a school that had this) Teachers need support and they need the recognition that they are human and therefore have limits and it is fruitless to ask them to do something they are incapable of.

    Whether the support is in the form of external or internal units, I think they need to be there to allow the "majority" who (usually) want to learn, to do so.
  16. lanokia

    lanokia Star commenter

    I'd support that... your child is consistently wasting public funds... in my opinion it's a form of fraud... the parents should be fined/prosecuted once their child passes a certain point on the behaviour ranking/points/spectrum.
    JosieWhitehead and dunnocks like this.
  17. palmtree100

    palmtree100 Lead commenter

    Only question I have for you is: Why do you only want this for "bright" children?
  18. blowswind

    blowswind Occasional commenter

    No more grammar schools would be sensible.

    As others have pointed out, they don't solve the problem that needs solving.
    wanet and schoolsout4summer like this.
  19. needabreak

    needabreak Star commenter

    Sadly the parents aren't always there. Try fining the ones who are banged up. So what to do with the children in care?
  20. Jenkibubble

    Jenkibubble Occasional commenter

    And what if grammar schools are NOT an option? - our nearest one is 20 miles away and even if the 11+ is passed, places are then allocated on a distance criteria. My daughter goes to what you refer to as a 'bog standard comp' and is in year 7 . So far, so good and she has already been involved in an aspirational Cambridge University group.
    emerald52, palmtree100 and needabreak like this.

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