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BAME SLT members of staff could help alleviate issues in some schools.

Discussion in 'Education news' started by mark_oviri1, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    Mike Sheridan and Ofsted Director recently commented that the watchdog need to do more to help black boys in London.

    I wish to ascertain why a huge drive to recruit or help promote those from BAME backgrounds into SLT and Headship positions is not at the forefront of ANYONE'S agenda to assit in alleviating issues and positively impact Progress 8 overall by having a certain cohort of pupils that have been seen as as underperforming for many years, start to positively contribute?
  2. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Star commenter

    Because schools would be breaking the law.
    You’d be also promoting individuals based on their identity rather than their competence.
    That’s a terrible example to set for children and young people, whatever their background. You’d also be teaching children to play the victim, rather than overcome challenges and difficulties through hard work.

    There are no legal or structural obstacles to BAME achievement, only Standard Social Science Model fairy tales about structural racism and unconscious bias.

    If the premise of your argument was correct, white British Children would outperform BAME across every variable. They don’t. Children from south and East Asian heritages outperforming white British Children is one many examples of differences of school achievement.
  3. phlogiston

    phlogiston Star commenter

    What young people studying in schools need most is effective leadership.
    I am not disagreeing that BAME leadership would provide a good role model.
    In Parliament, medicine and business we see some clear high achievers from those communities.
    What's happening in schools? Are bright people from BAME backgrounds applying to be teachers? Are they staying in teaching and thriving, or are they banging their heads against glass ceilings once they get beyond a certain point?
    I don't know the answers to these questions. The bright chap I used to teach did well as a teacher for a few years, but is off to Australia now.
  4. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    Hi Alex.

    Interesting viewpoint you share. However, I have questions around your answer..

    You mention schools would be breaking the law... how would having a recruitment drive towards an agenda that is and has been discussed over the years and in fact even more so recently bring about your reasoning?

    Also, statistics show the basis behind my question in the first place so I am unsure as to what you mean by the rest of your answer. Whilst you are right with your comment around White British children, overall you and I both know that the category broadly covers all and is not broken down into various subsections.

    Standard Social Science Model fairy aside, it would be great for you to share how many BAME Headteachers you know of?
  5. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    These glass ceilings you talk about, may I ask what leads you to make that comment? Also you are completely right! Effective Leadership is needed and that should be afforded to the best possible candidate for the role! But yet, this seems to not be the case for those of a particular ethnicity and that is why I pose the question I do. Some Inner City schools in London, I personally feel would benefit greatly from having role models that have lived or encountered similar environments to the children that attend these schools and have gone on to do well
  6. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    To Mark. It should be. Why isn't it? The will has to be there from existing SLT.

    Or some existing staff just don't feel comfortable to start the discussion with open eyes and ears.

    All the best.
    mark_oviri1 likes this.
  7. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Star commenter

    Because discrimination against an individual on their "race, sexual orientation or gender" can be unlawful, for example.
    The reort makes the point that candidates from reflective of society can be recruited when they are of equal caliber. There's a practical problem there, given teacher shortages.

    What statistics show what, exactly?

    If you're arguing school leaders create more desirable behaviour in children if they are from a simalar ethnic background, then I don't see how the evidence supports this, as there are variations across all manner of groups. Girls from afro-carribean heritage outperform boys from the same background. Boys from african heritage outperform boys from an afro-caribean heritage. You see even greater variance with children from south and east asain backgrounds, when compared with other groups. This would mean having to have to make a whole bunch of assumptions about different groups of individuals making differing judgements about morality of schools leaders. i.e. you would need to assume that X cannot model good behaviour in an adult from a different ethnicity.

    If the argument is that children respond well to role models in school, as a consequence of either parent being absent from families and home life, then I think you need to say that and maybe move the discussion into the place where it needs to be.

    I worked 20 years in London schools, with few years hear and there on supply. I worked with many HTs, some good, some bad, usually the usual mixture of both. But the effectiveness of those professionals depended on their comptency, which is ultimately what staff and students do respect. I worked with one "BAME" HT back in 1996 at Lilyan Baylis school. She was a black lady but her identity did stop terrible behaviour in the school, why would it?
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
    Stiltskin, Stephap, Jonntyboy and 2 others like this.
  8. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    We are going to have to agree to disagree around this subject. But I appreciate your viewpoints
    MsOnline likes this.
  9. letap

    letap Occasional commenter

    I don't normally agree with Teccy but he at least provides some form of evidence to his conclusions.
    You on the other hand make an assertion that you don't back up with any sort of evidence and I believe in an underhand way offensive towards non BAME people. This country is not perfect, however, if you have genuine evidence that you personally have been passed over because of your race then there are avenues you can pursue to rectify this.

    This chap has been successful:
    This person is possibly the most famous headteacher in the UK:

    They don't seem to have been held back by any glass ceiling in education.
    agathamorse and a1976 like this.
  10. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    Good morning to you. Firstly, I do not do underhand. I speak my mind and whether people agree or not, I am certainly not wishy washy with my delivery.

    I myself have not mentioned that I have been passed over. That is an assumption you have made, from where, I have no idea.

    Regarding evidence, I am not sure why I need to spoon feed adults with information that clearly can be found if typed into Google.....

    Also my post starts of by highlighting an extract taken from a quote by a Director from Ofsted hence the reason behind my topic.

    Below is an article for your perusal.

    corgie11 and MsOnline like this.
  11. MsOnline

    MsOnline Occasional commenter

    To Mark, as previously written:

    'Or some existing staff just don't feel comfortable to start the discussion with open eyes and ears.'

    There might be some long needed change in the way education is viewed. Some might not keep up with...or be open to keep up with.

    Change is good.
    mark_oviri1 likes this.
  12. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    I think the best thing to do is ignore the troll that is the OP. Imagine if a white person mentioned that white SLT members could alleviate problems in schools. The hypocrisy and race bating is definitely an agenda with certain people.
    Stephap and mark_oviri1 like this.
  13. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    Definetly not a troll :) What I do find amazing is how many people present as uncomfortable and therefore result to comments: take yours for example, when the actual facts lay in the palm of your hands.
    You are quite right! It would be very shocking to hear how my question is posed, worded how your wrote your comment but luckily this is not the topic at hand so we can go back to addressing something that really exists.
    corgie11 likes this.
  14. lovejoy_antiques

    lovejoy_antiques Senior commenter

    A drive to promote people based on their ethnicity. What could possibly be wrong with that?
    agathamorse and alex_teccy like this.
  15. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    I find it abhorrent that in this day and age there are still number of people who feel how they do which is clearly expressed throughout this thread. HOWEVER, the silver lining is that I still stand by my viewpoints and I am certainly not here to reply to you all and convince you of something that you are or would hopefully be aware of by now.
    I will still continue to do the work I do which I can gladly report has had positive impacts across all ethnicities and I will continue to do so in order to play my part in guiding the next generation to be the adults they deserve to be and play an effective and vital part in contributing positively to society. In the interim, I wish you all the best In this current climate.
  16. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    I don't think you realise that you sound like a true racist and horrible individual and it sickens me that you work in education. Thank goodness there are independent and homeschooling options available for people who can see the hypocrisy that people like you spout. How would you feel if someone posited the question of whether or not we should have separate schools for separate races? I find your posts on the same level as someone who would suggest what I just asked. I think this thread needs to be locked or deleted altogether, and have reported this.
    mark_oviri1 likes this.
  17. a1976

    a1976 Established commenter

    You sound like a very uneducated member of the public. You actually find it 'abhorrent' that we (gasp... educators) see the wrong in racism and discrimination, regardless of whether it is reverse or not? LOL...
    mark_oviri1 likes this.
  18. alex_teccy

    alex_teccy Star commenter

    Hi Mark,
    I respect you and the work you're doing, as I do all London teachers and (even, dare I say it, SLT!) I lived and worked in Tottenham/Haringey/Barnet etc for well over 15 years so, please don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from and you've certainly been most civil in this discussion.

    But that being said, I don't respect the sentiments in the article you posted. Yes, it is true that "BAME" ( and I yes I do use it in quotes, not perjoritively, but because I will not align with the terms identitarians choose to use) are less represented in SLT, but Allana Gay makes no effort to explore the complexities around the matter, opting instead to go for a cultural marxist stance on the matter and in the process making a professional slur, which is why I think we are so incensed (rightly so?) Teachers are some of the most generous, kind, progressive, patient professionals I've ever met. True there are bad apples, but this is not institutional.

    It's not good enough to excuse this with bogus concepts such as unconscious bias. Have you thought why such a term is needed? It's used where facts don't fit the narrative. Understand that whilst somebody like Allana Gay might think his perspective explains everything, in reality it explains nothing. He, the Guardian and the Leeds project are only capable of holding one thought in their head. We know what that thought is.

    I dont agree with @a1976 that this thread should close. Problem solving is a dialectical process and that means sharing ideas, even if some of them turn out to be bad ideas (on either side of the debate), and not going into our bunkers and lobbing snarl words around.

    Please mods keep this thred open it's what we're here to do.
    mark_oviri1 likes this.
  19. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    Comments like these are why my statement is just. Why would you assume I am uneducated? Because you live in an world where you do not want to face facts that are blatantly out there for you to read? Actually, why not reach out to the gentleman in which I quoted initially and share your sentiments as you have wonderfully done above? Or perhaps I could afford you the privilege of reading an article written by one of my sister's who attended Oxford University and discussed her trials and tribulations faced or maybe you may like to speak with my other sister who ran in the recent elections to become an MP (and dare I say, came second in which was an tough constituency.) Perhaps Mr or Ms letters and numbers you should reflect on your comment and rather than pass judgement (which I really hope you do not showcase in your field of education) and provide a constructive argument rather than result to what I would deem to be grassroot use of the English Language. On another note, I bid you a pleasant evening
    corgie11 and aalajamil like this.
  20. mark_oviri1

    mark_oviri1 New commenter

    I am sorry you feel the way you do. Unfortunate for you, fortunate for myself, I have been able to change and shape multiple lives of the children and parents I have come across and I would not change it for the world. Now where I find your comment very disturbing is that you would take to slander and comments in which are spiteful and could be hurtful in some cases.

    People like me spout? I am not sure I have been pleased to meet your acquaintance, neither would you know what I have endured.

    However, if you wish to see multiple accolades of my work, I am very happy to send these across! Perhaps it may provide you with an epiphany around the way in which you come across on the internet.

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