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Bad teaching = bad behaviour. Is this really the case?

Discussion in 'Behaviour' started by DollyD, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. According to awdxija's bio she is a trainee teacher...not to do you down love but BOY have you got a lot to learn :)
    We all start out so idealogical, don't we???!! Bless [​IMG]
  2. well, BigfrankEM, I was using that as an example of how it CAN be a teacher's fault when kids behave badly.
    I clearly can't go into details of the kid here, but I knew how he would react to work that he couldn't do - the kid ought not to be in mainstream, but as is so often the case, there is no provision elsewhere, so he ended up in an entirely unsuitable environment where he couldn't cope. and I made the situation worse on that day...I am not self-flagellating at all, just accepting that I didn't deal with that kid in the way I knew worked. His myriad problems and my lack of foresight definitely caused that situation. I really don't see anything wrong with apologising to kids/parents/anyone for mistakes - and in this case, the behaviour was dealt with at the time, and the discussion happened the following lesson.
    It was a very tough school, and I was there for several years, and I could tell when the bad behaviour was due to me (very rarely) and when it was due to kids (almost always), - because of their laziness, poor upbringing, lack of ambition or any aspiration at all other than to live on benefits...

  3. garyconyers

    garyconyers New commenter

    Flutterbyplant is right about bad teaching causing bad behaviour, although not for the reason s/he thinks.
    Frank is right that giving the sheet out to a kid is no justification for 'kicking off' at all! Not in any way. Ever. (I assume he wasn't punished for this behaviour - why not?)
    As far as I can tell, this boy has been taught that his behaviour in kicking off is excusable - acceptable - if someone does something at all to annoy him. However trivial. (I mean, giving him a worksheet to read. Come on, really?) So he's been taught that he's okay to kick off when annoyed, which means he will in a shop queue, or getting on a bus, or in a hospital waiting room, or in a pub.
    When he kicks off in future he won't get an apology for whatever petty minor triviality upset him, will he? (We can all guess what will happen).

    This makes me sad for him, and angry that he's been so ill-taught about manners and responsibility for his actions.
  4. I have spent 28 years at the chalkface teaching science, and I know how to manage behaviour in the classroom. I have mentored both new and experienced teachers in classroom management. Getting back to the OP, I can tell you absolutely, unequivocally and for certain that a poorly planned lesson makes behaviour more difficult to manage BUT simply having a well planned, interesting lesson will NOT, in itself, lead to good behaviour. You really do need to establish who is pack leader before any effective teaching can take place; fact, I've spent over half my life doing it!
    Some heads have been too long out of the classroom and when I hear them pontificating about no such thing as bad pupils only bad teachers it really makes my blood boil! What they too often fail to realise is that in many cases the kids are clever enough to recognise the authority of the head and be very compliant, yet the same kids will play merry hell with someone they perceive as having less 'clout'. I have known children excluded from school for days for something which, if they did it to a class teacher, they would just get a telling off for!
    Rant over, sorry folks.
  5. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    "You really do need to establish who is pack leader before any effective teaching can take place; "...

    and as the poster him/herself continues in the next paragraph, this is often well nigh impossible in the current climate!
  6. chicabonita

    chicabonita New commenter

    Absolutely, and then as a teacher you look like a sap for having to call on someone else who can apparently stop the trouble before it starts.
  7. autismuk

    autismuk New commenter

    It's complete ****.
    It is cover for the Government, DFSC and OFSTED who have individually and collectively screwed up the country's schools and children through an endless succession of ill thought out stupid ideas.
    Because they aren't allowed to be wrong, it's got to be someone else's fault ; "our ideas are brilliant, you just didn't implement them properly" ; rubbish, the ideas themselves are sh1te and don't work.(I would imagine Gary as a copp feels exactly the same about the Police 'Service' managers !).
    'Exciting lessons' should be a treat not an expectation. When I did Physics we viewed the 'fun' practicals as a sort of quid pro quo for the rather less fun theory that backed it.
    The endless desire for 'fun', now almost enshrined as a right to be entertained in schoo means l in some stupid people's eyes that it's the teacher's fault if the lessons are 'borin' and thus poor behaviour is somehow someone else's fault.
    It wouldn't be so bad if the curriculum wasn't so tediously proscriptive, it appears to be designed by ******, and it's also stuffed full of propaganda (mostly about environment, multiculturalism and other beloved leftie topics).
    Whilst it may be true that Bad teaching can lead to bad behaviour , it doesn't follow that they are equivalent or it works causally the other way round.
    This is Logic 101 : A=>B does NOT mean B=>A or that B==A
    .... though the Government/DFSC/OFSTED are so stupid IME that they probably don't understand this.
    For the simple minded (e.g. OFSTED inspectors) it works like this.
    1) All cats have four legs.
    2) Therefore, all four legged animals are cats.
    Rubbish ? Stupid ? Obvious nonsense ?
    Well, that's the same logic as your behavioural ideas !
  8. I'm sure you can't blame poor behaviour on poor teaching, in anything other than a tiny minority of cases. I'm a trainee and just moved to my second placement in a more "challenging" school. If the theory is true, there must have been a MASSIVE deterioration in the quality of my teaching, and what's more the kids must have had a premonition of this because they were behaving badly before I even began my first starter.
  9. YUP, this is what I'm on about. I have to sit through 4 hours of meeting on personalised learning next week where I will be expressing this view (on behalf of my department) and see if I can get SMT and the rest of the oh-so-worthy to wake up and smell the coffee. The learning can be as personalised as you like but if little Jordan has come in in a p!ssy mood and decided he aint working and wants to play up, whatever you try and do with him, then the lesson isn't going to happen!!
  10. DollyD:
    I can't resist being flippant and suggesting that you don't 'sit through' the meeting, but instead bang your pen on the table, start fights and run around swearing etc. Tell SMT they haven't made it interesting enough for you.
    The obvious response is that teachers are adults and the kids aren't, but how are they ever going to become proper adults if they aren't trained to concentrate and engage with something that isn't immediately fascinating?
    Good luck at the meeting!
  11. LOL. Love it. Or, a particular favourite of one of my year 9s if I try and engage him in discussion during a lesson, 'no g'way, g'way. No. No. No, g'way.'. Will they send me to isolation for a bit of peace do you think or am I being too optimistic???? [​IMG]
  12. Well they might, or you could have a card to show when you're feeling angry and you automatically get time out ;-)
    I just wish I could have tried this stuff with some of the managers in my old student job!
  13. chicabonita

    chicabonita New commenter

    Come in asking "Miss/Sir are we having a fun meeting today? Are we watching a video?"
    Bring your Traffic Light Cards and put out the red, amber or green according to how happy you are that you have understood the objectives of the meeting, the information they are trying to impart and so on. Or bring a mini whiteboard, and draw a large, erect pen.is on it and hold it up to show everyone, sniggering.
    Make a house of cards with the TLCs and then start throwing them at people.
    Spin coins on your table.
    When someone "gives you evils", say aggressively "Why are you looking at me?" Do not listen to any answer, just continue with a stream of Vicky Pollard-style words interspersed with "You always pick on me" "I'm safe with the other teachers" "Stop LOOKING at me!" and "Don't TOUCH me!"
    Then walk out, slamming the door behind you.
    Apologise later, and say that you had some stuff going on at home, and you got angry at the meeting because it wasn't tailored to your learning style, there wasn't a starter on the board for you, and someone contradicted you.
  14. hehehe think I'm going to keep putting my hand up and saying 'I don't get it'. When they explain it again I'm going to turn to the person sitting next to me and have a conversation throughout the explanation then tell them they haven't explained properly to me and they're a **** teacher .lol.
    I'm going to be sitting there with the biggest smile on my face thinking about this thread haha
  15. This country needs to seriously change some rules and regulations about schools.
    ' Filter system' i.e. exam at the end of every KS3 year.....who so ever passes goes to the next year and moves on withhis/her studies...others remain in the same year [year repeated]!
    Those who repeat more than 2-3 times....send them to Iraq or Afghanistan .....where our army can establish schools in collaboration with the local community!
    These messy behavioural issues have made me MADDDDDDDDDD!

  16. I left UK 10 years ago to work in the USA in inner city drop out schools. I plan to return to UK this summer to work in schools again. I cant believe that nothing has changed!!! Reading this and other posts it sounds just like it was when I left!! What does that tell you!!
    I was concerned that I would be out of touch and out dated but it seems I will be able to slip right back in where I left off!!
    One day someone will get the message that some kids are desperate to learn, some could care less and most sit somewhere in the middle. We are preparing them for the rest of there lives and we do a pretty aweful job as we are controlled by what has happened rather than what will happen. Give them life long learning skills so they can cope with whatever life throws at them and find their strengths to keep themselves occupied, give them a way to entertain themselves, exercise, eat and raise children What more can we do!!
  17. Hi
    I don't think it is always the case.You can have the most wonderful lesson on paper if you have one kid who decides he or she will disrupt it is enough to throw it completely.We can't always sing and dance.It is about time disruptive kids took responsabilities for their actions.You always have someone who usually has no idea telling you to understand and be sympathetic and the kids know it and will take advantage because they know they will get away with things.They should be taught that if you choose to play up you will be punished.It is probably the same at home where parents do not teach the children to face up to their actions and we can't win.Also as a language teacher when it comes to yr 9 they always come up with we do not need them and again it is another excuse because they will not take the subject next year.But we should have to put up with this and it makes our job difficult.We need to go back to basics and allow teachers to teach by dealing with bad behaviour.There is no magic wand but some help from parents and their co operation as well as a good management team is helpful.If children saw that their teachers are well backed up by their parents or the senior staff maybe they will learn.It is time we stop finding excuses which allow some kids and it is usually only a minority to ruin our lessons.Veronique

  18. BigFrankEM

    BigFrankEM Established commenter

    I don´t know how helllish it was 10 years ago before you left, but I would very strongly suggest that unless you were working in the absolute pits before then you will find that it has changed.


    For the worse.

    Good luck. Boy, will you need it.
  19. Quote : "and had a right old <u>paddy</u> when I took it away" ......

    Are you seriously advocating the use of this expression "a paddy" ?
    What does that mean ?
    What does it say about you as a role model ?
    What else do you do / say / write without thinking ?

    Oh, Happy St. Patrick's day tomorrow !
  20. I agree continual bad teaching causes lethargy/boredom but all singing all dancing 24/7 is physically impossible - creativity requires 250% effort, commitment & time but will ultimately fail because of those kids in a class who cannot cope with the excitement! chaos results. why? lack of parental control/indulgence & those kids who have been trained to believe I can do no wrong encouraged by the 'positivity clique'. Sorry if this sounds harsh. Only been teaching for 11yrs but have realised kids need to be streamed -those that will/could with persuasion/won't whatever you do. Kids know what they're about! That's just from a primary perspective.

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