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August born 2 year olds in nursery before 3?

Discussion in 'Early Years' started by Msz, Feb 29, 2012.

  1. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    It's a ratio of 1-4 for under threes
     
  2. inky

    inky Lead commenter

    This sounds like the thin end of a terrifying wedge.
     
  3. choralsongster

    choralsongster New commenter

    Are you registered to cater for under 3s, as there are different conditions. We took on in F1 a child 3 days before he was three, and even then I wasn't happy. Luckily, we had sufficient adults to cover the ratios for those days.
    I would go to the EYFS and give your Head the relevant pages to read through and consider the implications of having a younger child in your care. If you have done this, your back is covered in the event of a problem if they do start.
    Good luck, and fight your corner
     
  4. So glad that this thread is happening. I have been told that...rising threes can be accepted into the nursery and that the under three ratio does not apply in these cases provided that they are in the minority - in effect if it is the term in which they turn three then they are counted as three year olds. So then if their birthday is in August does this make them rising threes from Easter or do summer birthdays count as Autumn term? If it is from Easter they are very young aren't they - does the setting have to be registered for 2 year olds?
     
  5. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

  6. Thank you Msz [​IMG]
     
  7. Thanks for the Nursery World link, but I am in a school and have been told the ratio remains 1:13!
    Help, I currnetly have 3 still in nappies and several who cannot sort themselves out after going to the loo! if one of the 2 of us is dealing with a child leaves the other one with way over 13. HT not really taking this on board yet!!
    Have started home visits for Easter intake and out of 3 seen 2 still in nappies, what are parents doing? I feel less and less like a teacher, more of a replacement mum.
     
  8. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    If you work in a nursery school or a nursery class in a primary school you must have a separate Ofsted registration to take under 3's. This process takes 26 weeks, on average, and is rarely any quicker. You have to have a ratio of 1:3. Your Head probably doesn't know this and needs it politely and tactfully pointed out. [​IMG]
     
  9. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    then the nursery world link applies the Ofsted exemption is for preschools not nursery classes!
    The EYFS guidance advises that schools "should use their discretion in establishing ratios for these mixed groups based on the EYFS welfare requirements (that is, 1:30 for the reception group and 1:13, <u>1:8 and so on for the younger children</u>)". In exercising this discretion the school, and any partner provider, must comply with the statutory requirements relating to the education of children of compulsory school age children and infant class sizes.
     
  10. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    Sorry Msz, I'm not sure if you're saying the same thing as me or not! The nursery world article is 10 yrs old and I don't know whether Ofsted has changed it's criteria since then.
    Reading the quote in your post, I would guess so because the ratio is now 1:4 not 1:8 which it used to be.
    Schools can take 2 yrs old for payment, but only if they have a separate registration with a 'suitable person' registered in charge, which would be very unusual to be a class teacher. The 2 yr olds provision would also need to be managed by a separate body to the school, either a voluntary committee or the Governors.
     
  11. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    The quote says 1-8 and so on for younger children (which would be the 1-4 for2 year olds)
     
  12. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    True. Years ago the ratios were 1:8 for 3 yr olds in the PVI sector, now it's 1:13 as in nursery classes and schools.
     
  13. Msz

    Msz Established commenter

    only if the PVI employs a level 6
     
  14. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    Which if they want EYFS funding they probably do!
     
  15. grumbleweed

    grumbleweed Lead commenter

    Schools can take 'rising 3s' into their nursery without needing to be separately registered with OFSTED. We have two schools in our LA who take 2 year olds in the term in which they turn 3. In the example given, the child is 3 in August, but I am not sure if the 'term' end is classed as August 31st or the end of the term date (eg July). I suspect its the former, (but check with OFSTED just to be sure), which means the school can take the 2 year old after easter, because the child will be 3 before the end of thier first term in the school.
    The info can be found here
    http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-registering-school-based-provision
    Of course, just because they can doesnt meean they should, so I would still want to argue with my Head about it becasue a 2 year olds needs are quite different.


     
  16. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    That's really interesting grumbleweed. We are looking at taking 2 yr olds and both Ofsted and the LA have said we need to have a separate registration. I shall have to re-think if we just want to take rising 3's or younger 2 yr olds. I wonder what funding you would get for rising 3's, the funding for 2 yr olds is more because of the staffing ratio.

     
  17. grumbleweed

    grumbleweed Lead commenter

    I dont know off hand what the funding would look like, but an educated guess tells me that if 'rising 3s' are counted as 3 year olds for the purpose of registration, (as in the link given above), then they would receive the same funding as 3 year olds and be in the same ratio...this is the part that worries me most..if this is indeed the case, then potentially we have rising threes in a ratio of 13:1. The above document isnt clear on this. I know the schoools in my LA who take rising threes, work with an average 8:1 ratio even though they have teachers, but Im not sure if they have to or if this is just the school's choice to.

    Good luck with your decision if you want to take younger twos, then yes you would have to register.


     
  18. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    If we take rising 3's, they will be in a class with a qualified teacher and a level 3 NVQ. They will not have the option of doing 15 hrs over 2 1/2 days either, but come for half a day every day. If we take younger 2's, we will have 8 with a teacher and TA. I wouldn't do it any other way.
     
  19. Why would the 2 year olds be funded in nursery? Unless they are on the disadvantage 2 year old trial, 2's aren't funded in PVI settings. Are your schools trying to hoover up that funding as well?
     
  20. katycustard

    katycustard Occasional commenter

    The 2 yr old trial, is no longer a trial and yes our area was in the pilot. If we can provide good quality for 2 yr olds, why shouldn't we. There is actually a lack of provision in the PVI sector in our area.
     

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