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Attendance gaming ?

Discussion in 'Workplace dilemmas' started by neddyfonk, Jul 19, 2018.

  1. neddyfonk

    neddyfonk Lead commenter

    It was proposed at a recent meeting that parents of pupils that were frequently late could avoid being put down as unauthorised late by agreeing a contract with the school to move the time their children would be expected to arrive. Would you regard this as gaming the system ? I must admit I squirmed a bit but held my tongue until I investigated the statutory guidance.
  2. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    It's cheating the system.

    An giving anyone else the excuse to be late...
  3. AngelEd22

    AngelEd22 New commenter

    I think it is fiddling the figures a bit, but some pupils may have reasons why they are constantly late such as unreliable public transport in their area or being a carer for a parent. If these children have these contracts it can help with inclusion.
  4. CheeseMongler

    CheeseMongler Lead commenter

    Yes, it's gaming the system which is terrible, but at least they're accounted for and we know where they are. The worse option would be to record any and all "lates" as L (SIMS code speak) when they should be U. I've seen students on registers that were "late" apparently... by over three hours.
    JohnJCazorla likes this.
  5. ralphee11

    ralphee11 New commenter

    I don't agree that you can have one rule for one child and a different rule for another.

    What happens when all of the other kids click on and decide that actually they'd like an extra half an hour in bed and a shorter school day?
    agathamorse and FrankWolley like this.
  6. lunarita

    lunarita Established commenter

    I spent a (short) time at a school in which registration was at 8.50, classes began at 9.00 and the school bus arrived, daily, around 9.15. This was just accepted as normal, noone ever suggested getting the bus to start its route a bit early.
    agathamorse likes this.
  7. Flanks

    Flanks Established commenter

    Well, as you ask the question you can have the answer.

    In fact, school attainment would go up dramatically. It has been tested in lots of schools and in every case attainment improved. All children in the British education system are chronically sleep deprived because of school start times being counter to a teenagers biologically determined sleep patterns. Later school start times improve memory, mood, mental health, diet and attendance, as well as reducing risks for almost all known diseases and potential life shortening illnesses.

    At this point someone pipes up that they should go to bed earlier. If you want to argue with a few million years of evolution and argue that you know better then feel free. They can't go to sleep earlier, natural bed times for teenagers are between 10 and 11pm. They require 9-10 hours sleep, again argue with evolution of you dislike these facts.

    The difference is so pronounced that you can measure the difference in attainment between children who are driven to school by parents versus those who take public transport. The difference in wake up times for these two groups is a controlled variable, which even when you control for family income is statistically significant.
  8. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    I think you'll find that in the centuries (millennia) before electric light, the vast majority of the population went to bed not long after the sun set, and rose at dawn or shortly thereafter.
    mm71, sabrinakat, sbkrobson and 2 others like this.
  9. Flanks

    Flanks Established commenter

    1) you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with decades of controlled field and lab experiments which have been repeated multiple times.

    2) you will also find that our life expectancies have improved.

    3) you will also find that life expectancy goes up with sleep and declines with less sleep.

    4) people you are referring to we generally less will fed. A consequence of malnutrition is that we sleep less because the body triggers a survival requirement to spend longer looking for food.

    5) upper and middle classes who spent longer asleep became... Well, the priveledged in society both in health, education and wealth.

    6) our school system is based on work house principles and timings. This is well established to be counter productive.

    If you want to argue feel free Frank. But you will be hopelessly wrong. This is one of the areas of science which has an outstanding evidence base. Controlled tests on all life outcomes have been conducted where sleep is the only variable, as well as large data longitudinal studies.

    You can even test it yourself if you like, try having two classes keep a basic sleep diary of bed times and wake up times. Then do lessons and tests at fixed times each day, one group taught in morning and tested following morning, another group in afternoon tested following afternoon. You will generate two outcomes:

    1) the afternoon test group will perform slightly better on average, compared to their baseline, than the morning group. This is because we are naturally more alert in the afternoon, it is also because of proximity to sleep time which is also an aid to memory.

    2) in both groups, those with more sleep will outperform those with less.
    agathamorse likes this.
  10. border_walker

    border_walker Lead commenter

    Citation for your theory of evolution please. These things tend to go in phases. It doesn't seem that long ago that I recall a suggestion that the school should start earlier and finish earlier as research at the time suggested that kids learnt better in the morning and got tired after lunch. I am curious about the evolutionary driver for youngsters to get up earlier. Now if the suggestion was that the present generation spend too much time on electronic devices at night, combined with the effect of screen lights, resulting in their lack of sleep- I might accept it. However, wouldn't a later start just mean that they change their electronic addiction time and sleep deprivation would be no different.
  11. border_walker

    border_walker Lead commenter

    I think that hunter gatherers were better fed than we typically are.
  12. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    Has it occurred to you that most other similar (e.g. developed) countries either have a similar school day to us, or in some cases one where they start earlier (and also finish earlier).o_O

    Guess they're all wrong too...;)

    Mind you, I'd love to hear the howls from millions of working parents when they find out that they need to arrange child care before school if the school start goes later...:)

    Oh, of course I forgot, teachers will babysit them from 08.00-10.00!:eek:
  13. Flanks

    Flanks Established commenter

    The evolutionary driver is for them to get up later.

    Blue light from all LEDs is indeed a major sleep influencer, as is artificial light in general. Blue light suppresses production of melatonin, which is one of two chemicals we require to fall asleep. The other is adenosine, which is inhibited by caffeine (the other kick in the nuts for teenagers sleep).

    Later start would have the impact of reducing sleep deprivation, which in turn would support better sleep hygeine practices. It would also reduce the lure of caffeine and also promote better diet (appetite hormones are regulated during sleep, hence if you try to diet while sleep deprived you will almost certainly fail).
  14. border_walker

    border_walker Lead commenter

    But this is different to the time of the sleep. You are claiming that getting up later is better, but where is the evidence that the time that you get up with the SAME amount of sleep has an effect.

    There is research that it is electronic device addiction that causes the lack of sleep.
    FrankWolley likes this.
  15. border_walker

    border_walker Lead commenter

    Again citation please.
  16. Flanks

    Flanks Established commenter

    Unfortunately Frank your sarcasm misses again. Yes, most western countries all have the same problem. You can also chart rises in obesity and mental health difficulties exactly in line with both the increase in use of artificial light and school start times.

    Recently a lot of schools have started pushing back start times in the USA, after a small number trialled it and found a drastic improvement in attainment and attendance. It is now rolling out across most of the USA with increasing prevalence, feel free to look it up.
    agathamorse likes this.
  17. Flanks

    Flanks Established commenter

    More sleep is better, but when you sleep also matters. Morning sleep is where we do most of our REM sleep, which is memory and creativity orientated, as well as supporting mental health. So making children wake earlier is costing then rem.

    Fear not, I'll bring a list of citations later, probably this evening as my 1 year old just woke up!
    agathamorse likes this.
  18. sparkleghirl

    sparkleghirl Star commenter

    If you tell the average teenager they can get up a bit later, will they get more sleep? Nooooo!!!! They'll just stay up later!

    The argument seems to take the idealistic view that the default position of teenagers is to want to learn and want be at school. Some do, but for most their disaffection will not be changed one iota by a slightly later start. It's the kind of view common in those who are either new to or aspiring to teaching and who haven't yet had time to have their illusions shattered.
    mm71, JohnJCazorla, Laphroig and 2 others like this.
  19. FrankWolley

    FrankWolley Star commenter

    I'm happy to hear some good news from American schools. Makes a change from guns...

    But it sounds like a fad to me.
    sabrinakat likes this.
  20. border_walker

    border_walker Lead commenter

    I see lots of research about sleep deprivation effects, but not about getting up time. If the causes of lack of sleep are not addressed, electronic device addiction, then lack of sleep won't be addressed as they will still have the same amount of none school time to fit sleep into.
    sparkleghirl and FrankWolley like this.

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