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Are you in favour of primary LGBT lessons for young children?

Discussion in 'Education news' started by TES_Rosaline, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    We see things differently because I do see people being punished and pushed out of public arenas in this country. The use of safe spaces in universities for example. The recent uninviting of Jordan Peterson ( an American academic) by Cambridge university because he does not agree with the LGBT + view and of course Roger Scruton having been removed because, as he put it, he "Thinks" and his views were twisted and taken out of context to remove him. There are others cited in links in this thread.

    Not yet..... but I have been around these fora long enough to have seen others shut down by one malicious report from a person who is too cowardly to identify themselves. I have also seen other incidents in similar vein. So I am not holding my breath if I say too much and stay too long on the topic.

    Well, yes, that is why I have suspicions. That is why I steer clear of this person. But this comes back again to lying . More fundamentally this person is beginning their public service with a lie - saying they are a female when they are not, they are only identifying as such . They are biologically male. I know these days we are living in times when politicians and others lie with alacrity and openly but it still is not a good basis for trust which is essential in a public position I think.
     
  2. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    num3bers, I agree with you that non-platforming at universities is an alarming practice. Universities should be exactly the sort of place where people with opposing views could come together and discuss in a civilised manner.

    I feel that the Scruton incident is different. He has merely lost a privileged position. The government had every right to dissociate themselves from him, even if some of his remarks caused offence mainly by being cited out of context. It is simply not true that he can no longer express himself freely or has been pushed out of public life. To suggest that his firing amounted to some sort of censorship, is very misleading.

    As for your own freedom of speech on these forums, you are complaining about things that haven't happened to you yet.

    Regarding your councilwoman, I will have to take your word for it that she tried to intimidate you in some way, even as you give no details and prefer to go on about her gender identity instead.
     
  3. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

     
    BetterNow and num3bers like this.
  4. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    No problem here at all, each only a Google away:

    upload_2019-4-18_21-24-44.png
    upload_2019-4-18_21-25-37.png
    As a matter of curiosity, why are you contesting woman. female & adult but not human?

    Intersex people are not transgender people and tend to resent being brandished by transgender activists as political toys.
     
    BetterNow likes this.
  5. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    Errr ... no ... as previously stated a woman is an adult human female. A trans woman is a trans woman. It’s not hard. A person born male may identify themselves as female and may now legally change their gender. They cannot change their sex.
     
  6. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    Most people would, in everyday interactions, use a persons preferred pronouns. To do otherwise would be at the least rude and at the worst cruel. Most people do not really give a fig about how people choose to present themselves and are happy to live and let live.
    The appropriation of the word ‘woman’ to mean ‘someone who may or may not have a penis’ and the term ‘cis’ to mean ‘a woman who doesn’t have a penis’ is where I get off I’m afraid.
     
    num3bers and Vince_Ulam like this.
  7. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    Thank you for that you tube clip Vince Ulam. I think it says it all reaslly - " It was all over" the girl said.
    Then went on to say the most heartbreaking phrase in my view " The chance to win has been all over for those of us who are just girls" - the "Just girls" struck me.

    No they are not sore losers. They are just losers - losers when the boys ( identifying as girls) came along. She also pointed out how the media are no platforming her views and attaching her for speaking out.
     
  8. num3bers

    num3bers Occasional commenter

    Ezzet - there isnt much I can say on the trans situation vis intimidation because that might lead to identification. I would have thought that was obvious.
     
  9. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    I have been banned on other forums, and I know I risk being banned on this forum too.

    I was once warned by a moderator for calling an incident with transwomen an "attack" by transwomen, although I have to say they did listen fairly to my response, and then agree that "attack" had been an appropriate word, although the thread was still removed
     
    vannie and num3bers like this.
  10. ridleyrumpus

    ridleyrumpus Lead commenter

    I don't believe that he/she implied that they were.
     
  11. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    Wrong, they did so by introducing those people into this discussion.
     
  12. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    That's quite an assumption to make, AND from somebody who takes language so literally...
    I don't feel you answered my question. Are they liars, when they say they are "a man"?

    Personally, I don't see what the clip about the sports incident contributes to the question of whether pupils should learn trans people exist and should be respected. You are merely pointing out the obvious:
    Yes, there are fairness issues with some transwomen in sports. (Frankly, there are fairness issues with sports scholarships in general, unless it's for a sports course...)

    Vince, I notice both the definitions you cite have a little "1" in front of them, so they are the first of several... And it would be so easy to pick holes into those definitions. The example sentence in the first "Children should be accompanied by an adult" clearly refers to someone who is legally of age, not necessarily someone who is "fully developed" (when would that be, typically, mid-20s?). Not all women produce gametes that can be fertilized etc. (In better dictionaries, they normally say something like "typically produces eggs", but then the "typically" means you could technically include anyone...)
    Yeah, I could probably have included "human". No one word means one thing in the real world.

    I find that interesting. So "she" is fine for you, but "woman" is not? I don't see a huge difference there. For many people, in every day usage, "woman" doesn't necessarily refer exclusively to biological sex. People use the words "woman" and "man" to talk about gender all the time. I mean phrases like "dress like a woman", "who's the man in your relationship?" etc - all implying gender clichés, I know, but definitely about gender, not sex. (Is everybody using the word wrongly? Do you never use words to mean anything beyond the dictionary definition?)

    I don't think "cis" has anything to do with penises. It's about identity, and I don't like it either, as the trans/cis dichotomy excludes people with non-binary identities. :)

    To everyone who is telling me they have been intimidated or their messages have been deleted: fair enough, obviously I am not going to argue with your personal experience. I'm sorry this happened to you.
     
  13. Stiltskin

    Stiltskin Lead commenter

  14. Vince_Ulam

    Vince_Ulam Star commenter

    No assumption, you literally included them in your argument:

    That gender dysphoria is a real condition is not in doubt. That people suffering from it represent a genuine constituency or ethnic minority about which pupils must learn in school is false. Children do not need to learn about gender dysphoria in school, they learn about it from their parents and from the media. Teachers have far more important uses of their time.

    Eszett, most people recognise a primary definition when they see it. Nothing which comes after a primary definition usurps it nor are applicable in every context.

    Words have particular necessary meanings in particular contexts.

    Those people are using the English language incorrectly.
     
  15. vannie

    vannie Star commenter

    The term ‘woman’ always refers to a person’s biological sex. The term ‘cis’ seeks to redefine women in the context of a trans agenda. It is a form of appropriation. You are arguing that from a linguistic point of view that gender and sex are interchangeable and the logical conclusion of this is to make the term ‘woman’ effectively meaningless. Can you not see how offensive that is who are women?
     
    BetterNow, agathamorse and Vince_Ulam like this.
  16. Eszett

    Eszett New commenter

    I'm really not. I was merely pointing out that meanings in real life are less clearly defined than in dictionaries and are always susceptible to a certain amount of change and continuing negotiation. Dictionaries represent a limited snapshot of what language means to the people who use the language.

    I can see that some women are offended. Many are not. And no, I do not really understand all the emotion around this word.
    On a purely personal note: I am a woman. I was born with a female body, I am seen as a woman in daily life. I am fine with people referring to me as a woman. I don't see "being a woman" as massively important for my identity. I have NO idea, why I should be offended that a transwoman is also calling herself a woman.
     
  17. TheOracleAtDelphi

    TheOracleAtDelphi Occasional commenter

    I know I shouldn't get involved but - you can quote a dictionary as much as you like - does anybody else think that adult is not anywhere near as closely and cleanly defined as some people are implying? Legally, in the UK we tend to say that you become an adult when you are 18, but historically that hasn't always been the case (wasn't 21 'coming of age' not all that long ago?). In the context of a report about crime, some scientists studying the brain were suggesting that it doesn't become 'adult-like'/ stop being 'teenagery' until the mid twenties. Biologically I suppose some might argue that you become an adult when you are capable of reproducing but given there are a handful of cases of 11/12 year olds having babies and some girls start their periods in primary school and some people are unable to reproduce, that definition also seems somewhat problematic...
     
  18. TheOracleAtDelphi

    TheOracleAtDelphi Occasional commenter

    I know I shouldn't get involved but - you can quote a dictionary as much as you like - does anybody else think that adult is not anywhere near as closely and cleanly defined as some people are implying? Legally, in the UK we tend to say that you become an adult when you are 18, but historically that hasn't always been the case (wasn't 21 'coming of age' not all that long ago?). In the context of a report about crime, some scientists studying the brain were suggesting that it doesn't become 'adult-like'/ stop being 'teenagery' until the mid twenties. Biologically I suppose some might argue that you become an adult when you are capable of reproducing but given there are a handful of cases of 11/12 year olds having babies and some girls start their periods in primary school and some people are unable to reproduce, that definition also seems somewhat problematic...
     
  19. TheOracleAtDelphi

    TheOracleAtDelphi Occasional commenter

    Apologies for the duplicate post!
     
  20. dunnocks

    dunnocks Star commenter

    There is a whole world of difference

    because politely referring to someone by the language they wish to be referred to is not hurting anyone. A man changing their name to a female name is not hurting anyone.

    Surrendering the crucial, hard won safeties, securities and rights belonging to women is lethal.

    Woman being driven out of women's refuges by transwomen

    Women losing sporting honours to transwomen. At every level! I lose my ranking in my female age group to transwomen in the local park run most weeks!

    Women at risk from violent transwomen in female prisons

    Women losing the position of women's officer to transwomen, so women losing their political voice.

    Women losing female awards and enducements to transwomen in business and professional settings

    Women losing privacy and seclusion to transwomen in, in female only gyms, for example, ( I left a female only gym after n encounter with two very aggressive (naked- penis owning) transwomen.

    Similarly my friend has given up running guide camps because of the issue around allowing transgirls of around 16 (ie, males), to share washing and changing facilities with 11 year old girls, and the upset that has caused. So not only have young girls lost the opportunity for the enriching experience of guide camps, but the guides are losing leaders too.

    Lesbians in particular losing out on their particualr identity and spaces, some lesbain groups are now so dominated by transwomen that my lesbian friends don't feel able to go, and have withdrawn from social and political groups, because believe it or not, they have also been threatened and even reported to the police for not not fancying transwomen!

    I could go on, but I will add just one more consequence of saying that transwomen are women that I have seen.

    This was several years ago now.

    university open day

    "transwomen" in the womens toilet. had taken the sanitary bins out of the toilets, pushed the into the corner of the sink area, and were standing in front of them. Listening at the toilet doors for crackle sound of tampons being unwrapped, banging on the doors and insisting used trampons were brought out and handed over, then were sticking them in their knickers.

    I complained to the university staff and was told there was nothing they could do about trnswomen in the womens toilet, and what they were doing wasn't illegal.

    I say this is the worst I have seen, becasue the consequences were the worst I have ever personally witnessed, which was a teenage girl changing her mind about applying to university and cancelling her UCAS application.




    it is offensive, because saying cis-women redefines women into being merely a subgroup of women, and we are not a subgroup of women, we are women.

    Because of the consequences to women and girls of transwomen being called women, which is basically women losing safety, identity, security, political voice, status, acheivements, power, money, experiences, freedom, etc.

    Also from the dangers to everyone of the implicit agreement that men and womens brains or spirits or souls, or what ever you want to call it, are fundementally different, which is what you are saying, if you say womeone has to change their body to match their brain/spirit/soul, and quite often that a female brain/spirit/soul belongs in a weaker, prettier, girlier body dressing in girlier clothes doing girlier things.

    I don't know what percentage of transwomen cause trouble. I am sure it is very very small. Its hard to know, because the quiet peaceful type necessarily doesn't get counted, quite often. And I have never come across any similar sort of trouble from transmen.
     

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